BART parking FEES!!!
did you know that BART is going to start charging a fee at more stations now? They are going to start charging at fruitvale next!!! This charge is rediculous! They charge us up the ass for fare and now they are adding insult to injury with these damn parking charges! BART is a public agency, yet their only concern is capitalizing on excessive charges and fees. i mean, its $1 at most stations, and $5 at west oakland!!! What a joke!!! Now that "margro" is leaving, everyone should appeal these fees to the board of directors. If we raise enough hell over it, the new director might want to do something to appease the public. Thoughts?
Actually the topic being
Actually the topic being expensive has already been discussed in another thread and proven it's really the cheapest way to travel.
It is a slight pain that they are charging, but $1 is cheap these days.. And as a by product, I have noticed more available parking at some stations like Lafayette where I park now. It cut down on the casual carpoolers there..
I think they should also
I think they should also raise the BART fare during high peak hours, it should be double what it is during the commute hours. this would help increase the number of parking spaces throughout the day, more people would be in less of a rush to get to a station early in the morning if they could save a few bucks by going to work later.
Just because it may be
Just because it may be cheaper to ride BART than driving doesn't mean that BART isn't over-priced.
Gas is over priced, bottled
Gas is over priced, bottled water is overpriced, but you still buy them right?
A response should reflect
A response should reflect the same amount of considered thought you gave to your question. Here's your answer:
i disagree. you can get
i disagree. you can get water out of the tap for virtually nothing, yet people still buy bottled (some of which has been proven to be worse for you than tap, by the way).
if you commute to the city, bart is by far the cheapest way of getting there unless you stuff 5 people in a prius.
You can disagree all you
You can disagree all you want because you just keep missing the point and are talking about something that is related, but different.
Just pay the damn parking
Just pay the damn parking fee. Its better than paying $10.00 in SF right??
More like $20.00!! ;-)
More like $20.00!! ;-)
Yes, taking Bart and paying
Yes, taking Bart and paying for parking is less than driving to SF for a single driver, and it still beats driving. However, by know means do I think Bart fess are cheap. The cost from Walnut Creek is $10 a day. That's $200 a month; that is not cheap. And, when you add all the subsidies Bart gets from taxes and other sources, the true actual cost is around $20 per rider. So, that is $400 per month per rider. Not cheap! I am must drive to Bart for various reasons (including a bus system that sucks where I live, and child pickup issues).
Yes, BART costs a lot in
Yes, BART costs a lot in fares and other costs that you pay in sales and other taxes, but those who don't mind paying $9-10 a day will not have any sympathy for you and will tell you in their self-serving brand of logic that BART is cheap and that you must be doing something wrong if you can't afford it. BART also just announced a 5% increase to go into effect in January. Happy New Year.
YES! Complain to the BART
YES! Complain to the BART board and management. There shouldn't be any parking fees. Just because they can doesn't mean they should or that they are right. BART is supposed to get cars off the road; parking fees are a cheap trick to raise money once people get hooked on BART. As long as there is no good public transportation to BART so that people almost have to drive to the stations, there shouldn't be any parking fees. Another low-down maneuver by BART management.
fucking asshole if you do
fucking asshole if you do not like don t take bart
Most stations have pretty
Most stations have pretty good public transportation to and from them, with the exception of 19th St Oakland and Oakland City Center.
Transit "villages" are (and have been for some time) in place at Fruitvale, Oakland Airport, West Oakland, Bayfair, Walnut Creek, and Rockridge is served by AC Transit's 51 Line, which runs every 15 minutes all day and night.
It all depends on where one lives. If one lives up in the Oakland Hills and needs to get to Rockridge, it would require two or three bus transfers, and in the morning that is not practical. But if one lives right by a bus stop (59 I believe) that runs right to BART, it is very practical.
Location is everything...
And I say to Management: If you can do it and not lose ridership - Go for it!
BART is here to provide a service. It is also in the business to recover money for operations (which encompasses EVERYTHING in the budget.) BART is not here to be your friend, serve you financially, or give you a bargain.
And I say to you, the Complainant: If you don't like it, I suggest writing your BART Board Member, and if they're no help don't vote for them to be reelected and encourage others to do the same. Strength in numbers. Organize, form commites of "concerned riders", task forces, and so fourth.
Good luck to you both.
Good response, thank you.
Good response, thank you. However, I might disagree with one aspect of your comments and that is that, as far as I know, BART exists to provide affordable public transit services. When fares and related costs become increasingly unaffordable and when BART moves in the direction of becoming a transit service primarily for the middle class, there is a problem. One of BART management's primary functions should be to keep fares low and they should be graded, and rewarded, on how successful they are at doing this, not just how well they manage to systematically increase fares. JMHO, of course.
BART was created in the 60s
BART was created in the 60s and 70s as a transit system for the middle class. it was built to take people from the suburbs to the urban areas where theyd go to work and then home again at night. Thats why it was built. Like why the stations are so far apart.
Appealing to the middle
Appealing to the middle class was probably necessary and a drawing card to generate interest and public support to get the project rolling, but times do change. For example, there are many people who have paid a lot of money in taxes for a long time to support BART yet still have no nearby access to it; this is a hot topic in some counties. But even if BART is extended, the fares need to be affordable or the service will not be used. (I seem to recall one extension being underused although I am not sure exactly why.)
Can BART survive if only the middle class can afford to use it as fares continue to go higher? It seems more people benefit when BART fares can be kept low so more people could and would use BART. Revenue need not necessarily be lost since more riders at a lower fare would balance out fewer riders at a higher fare. With drive commuting costing a lot, BART could contribute to maintaining the quality of life in the Bay Area through its fares, but high fares will work against this.
Not that anyone cares, but
Not that anyone cares, but BART is looking into a flate rate, for BART, everyone would pay the same price reguardless of distanced traveled. I think this is a step in the right direction, but having said that, when they come out with it, people will still bitch!
Flate rate, sliding scale,
Flate rate, sliding scale, annual increases, discount tickets - whatever. Those who don't pay to ride bart now are not going to pay any of the above fare schedules either. If bart really wants to increase revenue and do it without raising fares, then get these fare evaders to pay their way.
Yes, fare evasion should not
Yes, fare evasion should not happen, but I'm not so sure clamping down there would make enough of a difference to hold fares down. The low-lifes who evade may just stop using BART. Maybe they use BART because they can get away with fare evasion, but if they can't they also won't pay. I think BART has to develop more Federal and State subsidies and thus spread the cost to a wider base.
If something is over-priced
If something is over-priced and costs too much then I am sure people will complain. What's wrong with that? You don't even know what the rate will be and are seemingly already endorsing it. How do you know it won't be too much? How do you know it's a step in teh right direction? I am amazed by those who do not examine costs critically as if a high cost is acceptable, a given. These costs contribute to inflation and there is a reason that the Federal Reserve is most concerned about inflation. Low and stable prices are in everyone's best interest.
this rank-and-file bart
this rank-and-file bart employee wonders: "...so if my wonderful place of employment is jacking the public for more money.... WHAT is this place spending the money on???"
would be a good lead for any investigative reporter out there. anyone have any friends with the media?
I will preempt (sp?)one way for this thread to engross toward: no, not on our union wages, my friend, we're falling behind cost of living increases, and have been during this contract. fuel prices? everything has been hurting us, too.
as i and many others have
as i and many others have said before, bart is not expensive. look at ANY other form of transportation (public or private) and i think you will find bart to be a relative bargain.
and, as i have also said before and proven mathematically, this is not only true for the middle-class or obscenely rich. as an example, if you live at the end of a line, say pitt/bay point and are an unskilled laborer who cannot make more than minimum wage, you are STILL better off financially by commuting into SF for your minimum wage job than to stick around pittsburg with a minimum wage job. this is because SF minimum wage is higher than that in pitt and more than makes up for the cost of the commute.
if you think bart is expensive, take a bus or drive a car. oh wait, those cost more than bart...
You cannot say BART is not
You cannot say BART is not expensive in part because that has subjective connotations. However, you can, and did, say that BART is a RELATIVE bargain compared to other modes of transportation, but this is NOT the same thing as saying it is inexpensive. You have been economically brainwashed or just plain don't know the difference or something. Listen to the people on this site who say $200-300 a month for BART is a hardship ... it is NOT inexpensive to them. In your calculations you may have shown that BART costs less to use, but NOT that it is inexpensive.
So, basically what will
So, basically what will happen (or is happening) is that only people making above a certain amount of money will be able to (or do use) Bart. A starting teacher would find it expensive to use Bart. Someone making $50K a year finds it expensive. Not all of the people who work in SF make huge amounts of money. I feel that public transportation should be used to encourage as many people as possible to get out of their cars by having reasonable rates. What is to stop Bart from raising fares not just 5%? Why not make it 10 or 20% a year; after all, only people who earn more money will ride the system.
i think a lot of people
i think a lot of people complaining about bart being too expensive are forgetting the fact that there are other ways to get around the bay area. you can take the bus, drive alone, carpool, etc. if any of these options sound more appealing then by all means, take them.
what you will find is that bart is RELATIVELY cheap in relation to other forms of transportation. so my question to those that still complain: if bart is relatively cheap, then why/how should it become even cheaper? unless you are intimately familiar with bart's finances and can prove that bart mismanages funds or something, maybe there are better things to complain about: the cost of gas, bridge tolls, parking, dirty buses that require multiple transfers to get you to your destination...
BART is overpriced not only
BART is overpriced not only because the fares are high and keep going higher (see the New Year's treat waiting for you), but also because its operations are subsidized by various taxes including additional sales tax in a number of Bay Area counties. Any comparisons should include these costs, too, not just what someone will pay out of pocket for any given excursion. I wouldn't be surprised if these additional costs make the cost of an actual trip perhaps twice the gate fare. And, if you don't use BART then you are paying via sales and property taxes and getting nothing.
You don't seem to understand that some people think we are paying quite enough and also are just not getting what we pay for. Why should we consider alternate transportation when we are paying a lot for BART? We just want what we are already paying quite enough for.
From another angle, why would anyone ever argue that costs should not go down? I can only think that you either work for BART or have so much money that you don't care what things cost.
you are one of these people
you are one of these people that will say BART is more expensive if they raise the fares 3%, even if the CPI consumer price index goes up 4%.. which would mean that its cheaper in todays dollar.
Pay Phones used to be a dime, now 50 cents.. That's a hell of a difference, but in today dollars, that's fair..
I think someone did the math and BART is cheaper today than the 70's..
"You don't seem to
"You don't seem to understand that some people think we are paying quite enough and also are just not getting what we pay for"
just because you "think" something doesn't make it true. do the math and PROVE that bart is expensive. then, let's discuss.
All the proof anyone needs,
All the proof anyone needs, or should need, is to listen to the people who say BART fares are too high and a hardship. If you are only capable of comparing numbers you're missing the boat by not being to see beyond your calculator. Again, anyone who argues against lower costs and fares must either work for BART or has so much money they don't care what things cost.
there is no point in looking
there is no point in looking beyond the numbers, as numbers represent the cold hard facts. numbers are the only proof whether something really is expensive, and i would argue that the numbers point to bart being a relative bargain.
furthermore, no matter how cheap bart gets, there will always be people complaining. make it free, and people will complain that it is too crowded, too noisy, has too many bums or is too far from their house.
it is not your god given right to ride public transportation at a cost that YOU deem to be fair. there will always be complainers, so if you can't afford it, i suggest you find a cheaper method of transportation.
1) i do not work for bart and 2) i do not have obscene amounts of money, so stop accusing me of either of these things.
perception vs reality.. you
perception vs reality..
you can't just listen to people.. anytime something goes up people are going to whine. People focus on the perception that things are more expensive, not the reality.
if people never got raises and the price went up, then you have a problem. but that's why we look at the CPI. so as everyone's pay goes up, which means the cost of business goes up, BART and every business raises prices to keep up..
The fact is that BART has
The fact is that BART has the highest fares of any mass transit system in the U.S., including high cost of living cities like NYC and Boston. You are wasting our time trying to convince us that BART is a bargain. Yes, BART is cheaper than driving. So fucking what? Walking is free, but it's not practical for most people who live and work in the Bay Area.
"The fact is that BART has
"The fact is that BART has the highest fares of any mass transit system in the U.S., including high cost of living cities like NYC and Boston." WRONG. check your facts before you post:
boston's commuter rail is a good comparison to bart in terms of the geographical service area. and guess what? IT IS MORE EXPENSIVE THAN BART - as much as $9.75 one way ($7.75 maximum fare plus a $2.00 surcharge at some stations during peak hours). here's a link: http://www.mbta.com/schedules_and_maps/rail/
Additionally, while the NY subway costs less than bart, the NY Subway takes about 3x as long to go the same distance as bart (time is money), and covers a MUCH smaller geographical area (if the NY subway was transplanted into SF, it wouldn't even reach orinda).
NY Subway is much more comparable to MUNI in those categories and the NY subway is, everyone say it together: MORE EXPENSIVE THAN MUNI. $1.50 vs $2.00 - 33% more.
and my point was completely
and my point was completely missed:
if bart is charging yet more $$ for parking,
that is going into its revenue.
where is it coming out as? -- general fund?
Possibly unrelated, but a co-worker mentioned
that bart is going to hire paramedics.
Our discussion first wondered which union they
would be represented by, ATU or SEIU (our guess: SEIU)
second point was: why paramedics?? only thing we can
possibly come up with is a mix: (1)response time throughout
the bart system of local emergency medical entities, and
(2)overall costs that bart pays to all these entities when
called to respond to barts 'medical emergencies.'
As a BART Employee and
As a BART Employee and Former EMT, I can't see BART hiring paramedics, far easier to train BART PD as paramedics or EMT's, or to train Station Agents, to hire them seperately would be a waste of money.
My understanding is that
My understanding is that most of the money paid in parking fees (around 75%) goes into Bart's general fund. I think Bart's board members will be charging more and more for parking in the future because it is easy money for them; most riders only option is to drive to Bart. I think some board members have even felt that they should use the land the parking lots are on for others purposes (i.e. - sell them to developers for a lot of money).
Also, the paper said Bart will be hiring paramedics to be at the more busy stations during certain times of the day.
I *can* see bart mgmt.
I *can* see bart mgmt. trying to undermine the unions during contract negotiations-- with the screws being applied to the riders with ticket prices going up & parking charges, when the unions negotiate pay increases for the next contract, just watch and see if it isn't turned against us.
Under our present contract, 4 years, 0%, 2%, 2%, 3% raises over the four years; this July will mark year 3 (so one more year to go until contract time again). We are slipping behind, again.
.
Poor, poor Bart workers. I
Poor, poor Bart workers. I feel so bad for you. Because you are so underpaid, please feel free to find another job making more money, with better benefits, some where else. Also, please let us all know where you will be making all of these massive amounts of money, with wonderful benefits. I know teachers (with college degrees and teaching credentials) take many years before they make the money a Bart worker does. I think Bart could find plenty of people willing to do your job.
BALONEY!!! You can't blame
BALONEY!!!
You can't blame the rank & file workers for increased fares or parking or anything.
Collective Bargaining IS the reason for most of our labor laws that are in place today.
The union or union's are not trying to break the system.
None of them are getting rich.
They are just trying to keep up.
Nope...I'm not a union member.
What those folks get paid at BART has absolutley no bearing on what I bring home on my paycheck.
Including teachers.
Nope...I'm not a BART employee.
Salaries / pay-scale in the Bay Area is nothing like anywhere else in the country, or even Soutern California for that matter.
Payscale, fares, parking charges all follow the same rule.
It's what the marketplace will bear.
So, if YOU don't like it...
YOU get another job.
jbap21
Some old, but interesting,
Some old, but interesting, related news:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2005/06/29/BAG83DGG061.DTL
....sigh.. (thinking 1000
....sigh..
(thinking 1000 ways to reply/respond, but not gonna take the bait)
well, yes, the only thing to comment is that bart does provide good jobs, and the only way to keep them as good jobs is one which provides a livable wage here in the bay area.
I am hopeful that the Monday through Friday commuters/riders understand that. And hey, if someone needs a good and decent job, we're always hiring.
Well worth noting, as I can testify for the last eleven years: whatever raise the workers get, non-rep'd employess and managers get, too, if not more. Just like corporate America, upper management gets a lot more than rank-and-file. Not criticizing, personally I would like to be in their shoes, but I also like playing with the trains. Plus, the managers (not all) get bonus checks. Some monthly, some annual.
.
its not so much the money,
its not so much the money, its the principal. Our tax dollars paid for these parking lots and now they are charging us to park in them. The part that really disgusts me is how much these bart managers are making. i heard there are 5 people in charge of running (into the ground?) the parking access program, and they all make more than i will see in 3 years. what is this about bart emt's? ive never heard of that
BART wants to put paramedics
BART wants to put paramedics at busy stations during peak hours.
Why? God doesn't even know...
-Mark
yup, tax dollars paid for
yup, tax dollars paid for the parking lots, now let the people at stations with parking, and use the lots, pay to maintain them.
They should've kept the old
They should've kept the old Key System in place. That would've been better then BART and AC Transit and those crappy Van Dump buses.
That's General Motors fault;
That's General Motors fault; they ripped it out and replaced it with polluter buses that run like dookie.
. If only AC Transit converted its major trunk lines into Light Rail service like MUNI and VTA, but of course that would have to compete with BART's heavier and faster rail service. Why do you think the San Pablo Rapid competes with the Richmond-Fremont-Daly City lines?
Hey smartypants, The people
Hey smartypants, The people who work at BART do pay taxes as well and they are not given a space to park in for free. It is the cost of commuting so either zip it or get a job closer to home. And just so you know there is only 1 person in charge of parking now. See BART believes that Kevin Haggerety did such a "wonderful" job that they promoted him...
It doesn't have to be a cost
It doesn't have to be a cost of commuting. Someone at BART just decided it was going to be. If people don't like it, they should contact their BART representatives and complain.
PLEASE INCREASE THE
PLEASE INCREASE THE FEES!!!!
I am a permit holder and I find the fees very fair. So many people use the parking lots to go shopping at their favorite stores and do not even use BART. $5 parking fees would keep all these creeps out of the parking lots that BART patrons use.
BART please add fees to all parking lots please!!!!
For those of you that do not agree, buy a bicycle or better yet get off your fat @#ss and walk!!!!