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Need to replace scrolling signs

Hey guys, this is actually a letter I just sent to the BART general manager, Tom Margro. But I wanted to know if you guys felt the same way, or had anything to add. If you do, please email me back at tdhock AT ocf DOT berkeley DOT edu.

I have been riding BART frequently for 5 years, including on my commutes to and from work. I am generally content with the rapid, frequent, and inexpensive transportation that the BART system delivers.

However, I have noticed that the red-on-black signs on each BART platform could use some improvement, and literally everyone I have talked to in person about this topic expresses similar discontents with the current system. In particular, the use of scrolling messages on the electronic signs at each BART platform is inefficient, confusing, and annoying user interface device for BART riders.

In my experience, BART riders waiting for their trains at a platform only want to see (1) what trains are coming next, and (2) when they are coming. In contrast, the signs (1) give other information, and (2) scroll the text. Both of these factors contribute to the fact that a rider must watch the screen for sometimes up to 30 seconds before he gets the information he wants about the next trains. Often, conversations are interrupted and books are put down in order to stare at the screen long enough for the desired information to appear. This results in a time-consuming, annoying, and generally unpleasant experience when waiting for a train.

Furthermore, the situation could be easily remedied by omitting the extraneous information and stopping the scrolling. Instead, just show the departure times and destinations of the next 3 trains, like they do in the metro systems of, for example, Sydney and Tokyo. Such changes would create a simpler user interface that riders could use to instantly get the information they want, then leave them free to read, converse, or compute.

My desire for a simple and uncluttered user interface for the BART system is echoed by BART rider Jeffrey W. Baker, who claims that "All I need to know are: 1. When is the train coming? 2. Where is the train going? 3. Where is the station?" (http://barelyconnected.net/about.html). Frustrated with the overbearing user interface of the bart.gov website, he created a trip planning tool at barelyconnected.net that is simple, powerful, and effective.

It is certainly possible to implement a simplification of the existing electronic sign displays without reducing the actual information displayed. First, there are 3 lines of text on a standard display, which suggests that the schedule of the next 3 trains could be displayed there constantly. If the other information (i.e. elevator status updates, security warnings) still needs to be displayed, then perhaps one side of each sign could be used to display the schedule of the next 3 trains, and the other side could be used to display scrolling information. That way, you could always look to either your left or right and at least one of the displays you see will have the upcoming train schedules.

I humbly request that the BART management perform an audit of the user interface systems in general and the electronic platform signs in particular. If the simplifications I have suggested for the electronic platform signs are effected, I believe the BART ridership will benefit from the more efficient, intuitive, and usable system that results.

as one of the many

as one of the many rank-and-file employees, I like your suggestion (but, being r-and-f, helpless to do anything).

I assume you are referring to the afternoon commute, SF to _____. Outside of extra commute trains (those that turn back @ 24th St Station), the trains follow the C.A.R.L acronym-- C line, A line, R line, L line. I do not have the info nearby, but starting around 4:30p there are extra C line trains thrown in the mix, sometimes two trains in a row.

C line-- Pittsburg/Bay Point, A line-- Freemont, R line Richmond, L line-- Dublin/Pleasanton

I hope you succeed in inacting change

The real time train info is

The real time train info is certainly what most passengers want. The signs are also supposed to provide you with other information such as what to do in the event of emergencies, advisements about how to avoid being a victim of crime, etc.

I recommend that BART go back to scrolling train arrival times as soon as the the train at the platform departs because passengers will know when to expect that info. This is what BART used to do and for some reason, now they give other info first before train arrival times. Real time train arrival time should be the priority display. I mentioned on another topic that people are coming into the stations continuously and real time train arrival info isn't useful if most passengers aren't going to see it because BART is telling you other things. The trick is how to maximize displaying real time info and balance it with other info.

Shrapnel's picture

Well, at some stations, such

Well, at some stations, such as Fruitvale, and on Broadway and 12th, above City Center Oakland, there are NextBus signs, by AC Transit. Why don´t we have signs like that located throughout the station, how about replacing the timetables or placing signs like that above timetables, with all arrivals for the next hour?

Yet still keep the scrolling signs for the security, emergency, and advertising nonsense.

BART's equivalent to the

BART's equivalent to the "NEXTBUS" sign is the flashing lights that can be seen from anywhere in the parking lot, on the platform or in the station.

Why would you want all the

Why would you want all the arrivals for the next hour? Are you planning to hang out in the BART station for over an hour before you hop on a train? Each train comes every 15-20 minutes.

"Why would you want all the

"Why would you want all the arrivals for the next hour? Are you planning to hang out in the BART station for over an hour before you hop on a train? Each train comes every 15-20 minutes."

»

That last was posted by a BART employee.

Why post train info at all, then?

The point is that people are coming into the station all the time. Not everyone is going to see the ONE TIME the train arrival scrolls by over a period of time.

At a time when transit is moving toward real time information, BART wants to know why we know to arrival times at all. Unbelievable.

just goes to show that some

just goes to show that some bart employees really have no clue as to what they do within the organization, or how the organization functions in the real world.

tempis fugit

pay attention to daily ridership numbers, look at how many trains there are. morning commute, evening commute. just look at how crowded the trains are

If you haven't noticed, the

If you haven't noticed, the train arrival scrolling message goes hand and hand with the audible train arrival announcements. This is to comply with ADA regulations for people who cannot see the scrolling message board. If they scrolled the train announcements every minute, you'd hear "Nine car train for Fremont in 5 minutes... Eight car train for Dublin/Pleasanton in 6 minutes etc etc" Then it would repeat again a minute later. Wouldn't that be annoying? Then people would be complaining that the audible announcement never shuts up. I guess no one really thought about that one, huh?

Shrapnel's picture

Well, I sure as hell

Well, I sure as hell didn´t! And I´m not above saying it. Good point!

Having the train arrival

Having the train arrival times scroll after trains depart would at least give patrons some idea when to expect announcements, including people with impaired vision. Ever think of that?

The suggestion is not to have the train arrival times scrolling continuously but more often that now. Otherwise your brilliant implication not to have it all is probably not a bad idea since what you are doing now is not very helful. Especially like this morning when the train arrival times were wrong at 12th St.

my favorite problem with the

my favorite problem with the scrolling messages is when it begins to scroll the train schedule and before I can read the message it is interupted so that it can show the current time. Shouldn't the system be set up so that the train arrivals take presidence over any other messages? ultimately, the reason i am at the station is the catch a train, not to be reminded that i can take bart to sfo, a ballgame or that i should keep my personal belongings close by to aviod theft.

Shrapnel's picture

You can´t have it all ways.

You can´t have it all ways. If you had your purse rummaged through on BART, were on your way to the car and got mugged or carjacked, or got pickpocketed, I´m sure when I show up to take your report, the first thing you´d say to me was ¨You should´ve warned me! Why were those damn signs only showing the train info when they could´ve been keeping us safe? Typical of you BART loonies!¨

there are already billboards

there are already billboards in the stations, parking lots and trains that tell me i could get mugged or that i can travel to sfo via bart. additionally, i have a watch, cell phone, blackberry and ipod that all tell the time. since i already know the mugging/sfo/time crap, it would be nice for the scrolling messages to be reserved for train arrival info.

Shrapnel's picture

Did you read the post? No

Did you read the post? No one was calling YOU a loonie. I´ve actually been called a loonie because I didn´t arrest someone that did nothing wrong, and the complaintant was upset. I was ficticiously quoting YOU as calling us loonies because you weren´t ¨warned¨.

BILLBOARDS? BART has BILLBOARDS? Where would these be?

And if you know that you´re a target, why continue to carry them? Now, I´m not you, and I´m sure you think you have a great reason, but it sounds a little excessive. A phone, watch, Blackberry, and iPod? You said they all told the time, but they all also probably cost about $1000, combined. If you got mugged, you´d be SOL.

Why not look into buying a Treo, or something of the like. A Treo has Windows built in, you can access the net, your docs, play MUSIC, tell you the time, and yeah, you can even make calls on it. I have one and it´s great. I used to carry several, um, devices, with me, but as I´m not concerned with mugging when in uniform or not, it´s more of a loss-prevention thing.

Well, good luck.

there is no great reason for

there is no great reason for all my devices. i totally agree with you on the treo thing, but the total cost of the blackberry, phone, watch and ipod was $0 to me. free phone with service, free blackberry from company, watch was a gift from 10 years ago and the ipod was also a gift. for me to get a treo would cost more money than to keep all the crap i currently have. i suppose i could get rid of the phone, but the company pays my phone and blackberry bills and frankly, the blackberry sucks as a phone. and i wear the watch just because it looks funny not to wear one when i dress up, IMO. i'd probably still wear it if the battery was dead.

i don't think i am a target for a mugging, even with my plethora of devices. the watch is not flashy and stays under my sleeve 90% of the time. the phone is a piece of crap freebie and stays in my bag the whole time and i take my blackberry out of my bag maybe once out of every 5 commutes (when i feel it vibrating in my bag). plus, i am 200lbs. i realize that 200lbs is no match for a gun, but i'd argue that the average mugger is going to look for an easier target. you'd have to be super crazy to rob someone at gunpoint for a POS blackberry and a 10 year old watch. it could happen, but then again, i could get hit by a bus jay walking and i still play the odds on that one too...

maybe there are no billboards about specifically how to not get mugged, but there are billboards about looking out for suspicious packages and other security concerns. and there are some others about being "bart smart" which i think encompasses both not eating/drinking and not getting mugged (although i've never really cared to read them). i would argue that the average person knows there is a pickpocketing/mugging risk when riding public transit. i don't need a billboard or announcement to remind me about that. i would, however, like to know when the train is coming.

As a BART Police Officer, I

As a BART Police Officer, I have noticed that attitudes like that are all too common. The "it will not happen to me but if it does, I will be fine" hopes are at best, a long shot. The bottom line is that people DO get mugged, pickpocketed, and car jacked in and around BART. Sad, but true, some people do not fully realize that the risk does exist while riding public transit. BART Police and BART Admin is directly responsible for warning and making it known to the public that these threats are real and do exist. I hope, for your sake, that you never do get mugged, and that if it happens, they take whatever you have and it is at no cost, be it financially or physically, to you.

Just my two cents.

Ofc. J. M.

Oh, and one more thing. The

Oh, and one more thing. The billboards encouraging vigilance are from DHS funding. The Department of Homeland Security gives BART a budget for Homeland Security. Those fall under it. We can not use DHS funding for personal, non-homeland security messages. If that makes any sense. Best wishes.

Ofc. J.M.

i never said it will never

i never said it will never happen to me. all i said was that i don't feel i am the typical target for a mugging. in my post i indicated that i don't flash my $1,000 worth of crap around - it stays in my bag with the exception of the ipod. that, and i'm freakin huge (just kidding).

also (and feel free to correct me if i am wrong on this, because you are the bart police officer) i don't think my commute is a particularly hazardous one - walnut creek to montgomery and back, during heavy commute hours. leave WC by 7:15am, back by 6:00pm. maybe with all the people around i am ripe for a pick pocketing, but a gun-to-the-face "give me your 3 year old free-with-contract cell phone and crackberry, bitch" mugging doesn't seem very likely.

Attitudes like that? You

Attitudes like that? You are the one with THAT attitude. And I quote: "I´m not concerned with mugging when in uniform or not"

Just me, but would you mug a

Just me, but would you mug a cop? LOL!

"when in uniform OR NOT" if

"when in uniform OR NOT" if a cop is not in uniform, how is anyone supposed to know he/she is a cop? a off duty cop in street clothes is just as succeptible to a mugging as anyone else.

i just reread the posts, and noticed that the cop with the supposed "attitude" and the cop that says the "attitude" is all too common seem to be different people. my apologies on that, but the rest of my post still stands.

Yeah, if I got mugged, I'd

Yeah, if I got mugged, I'd really be PO'd that BART hadn't flashed some message about that possibility on the train destination signs. A message on a sign is going to keep us safe? Must be BART's new security system ... instead of having police officers at stations where they ought to be. And WE are the loonies? HA!

Missed the Pittsburg train

Missed the Pittsburg train at about 7:25PM. wondered if the next train would be a few or 20 minutes. Wondered when Dublin might come along giving me a choice to go straight home. Looked at the sign. PSA, time, PSA, time, blank screen, PSA, time, blank screen, PSA, time...

Several minutes later the train arrival time. Apparently only Pittsburg was in service because no time was given for Dublin. I asked no one in particular, "Did Dublin service die?"

Sat down, read the paper, looked at the sign, started to scroll train arrival times but was interrupted by the time.

So if you want to know what time it is, pop into a BART station because you'll be an old man before BART tells you when the next train is coming.

WOI's picture

Come on, dude, BART's cutsie

Come on, dude, BART's cutsie little messages about suspicious activity and Berkeley Rep performances are completely out of place on an electronic time table. If patrons really have to be reminded about all the possibilities and dangers out there, there are plenty of other ways to do so--and many are being used!
I fully agree with the original post: the one and only piece of information I want when I look at the time table is which train is arriving at which platform and at what time. Typical of most time tables I've seen (elsewhere), how about you?

Would it kill you guys to

Would it kill you guys to look at the paper timetables posted throughout the station, or ask an agent? Or is people interaction not your strong point?

TreoBART's picture

I am a child of the

I am a child of the internet, I don't trust paper, when was the last time they updated those timetables anyway?

A piece of paper printed a

A piece of paper printed a year or more ago isn't going to reflect current conditions in the system that affect train scheduling and arrival times at a station. Duh.

When agents start hanging

When agents start hanging around on the station platforms I guess we could ask them when the next train for (fill in the blank) will arrive. In case you didn't notice, the topic is actually the usefulness of the scrolling signs in keeping riders informed of train schedules while people are on the platforms.

have you ever ridden public

have you ever ridden public transportation before? have you ever heard of delays? since when is the paper timetable 100% (or even 50%) accurate?

and yeah, i really want to go back down or up the stairs to the faregate, so i can wait in line at the agent's booth and ask them when the next train is coming. why don't you try that sometime and let me know how it goes. i guarantee the response will be something like "check the freakin' signs, dumbass"

BART's Scheduling

BART's Scheduling philosophy:

A broken clock is correct at least twice a day...

Ok. First off, you guys stop

Ok. First off, you guys stop bickering! Second off, the signs tray information as it should run ON THE SCHEDULE. The signs will tray "Six car train for Richmond in five minutes. Nine car train for Pittsburg Bay Point in nineteen minutes" based on the fact that, per the schedule, they SHOULD be there in X minutes. If there is a delay, and say a Richmond train is held at City Center, the signs would continue to tray "Six car train for richmond in one minute" based on the assumption that it SHOULD arrive one minute after arriving at City Center. Thus rendering your argument mute. It would say one minute for twenty minutes. Or infinity, depending on how long the train was held.

No one is bickering. You

No one is bickering. You just obviously don't get the point which is that BART throws so much useless garbage on the destination signs that a rider can't walk on to the platform and quickly get good, current information about what trains are coming and when. If you don't mind waiting through interminable time flashes and a ton of basically useless PSA's, then fine, but that's what people are complaining about.

plus, your arguement is

plus, your arguement is flawed. first you say "the signs tray information as it should run ON THE SCHEDULE." then you contradict yourself by saying: "say a Richmond train is held at City Center, the signs would continue to tray 'Six car train for richmond in one minute' based on the assumption that it SHOULD arrive one minute after arriving at City Center."

the computer's assumption that city center is one minute from the next station really has NOTHING to do with the printed schedule of when the train will arrive at that next station. if the sign flashes "richmond train in one minute" for 10 straight minutes (which i have seen happen), explain to me how that correlates to the printed schedule.

and it is moot, not mute.

rafa1215's picture

I've noticed that on a

I've noticed that on a crowded train people have a hard time hearing or seeing what station stop they are currently at. How about an electronic display sign inside the train showing you what stop you currently are stopped at?