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Fruitvale parking is a joke

bartside's picture

The new 5 level structure is filled up by 7am and then the outdoor parking lot is now handled by an outside vendor. Starting Feb 1 it will be raised from $2 to $3

when is this going to stop? I heard West Oakland is already at $5
why does it cost the riders money to park when for the last 20 years BART ran just fine with our fares?

Now Bart management sees

Now Bart management sees parking as an easy source of revenue. I assume that the parking fees all go into Bart's general fund to pay for whatever. I hardly think it costs that much money to maintain these parking lots. I feel if Bart is going to start charging more and more for parking, the money should go into a special fund to provide and pay for more parking. Most of the Bart lots were set up many years ago, and cost hardly anything.

Bart management is just lame about their policies.

To any Bart managemnt reader - why are we penalized for having to drive to Bart? What is your solution to how someone should get to Bart if they live far from a bus route? Bart was set up as system for suburban dewellers to drive to.

The Fruitvale parking

The Fruitvale parking structure cost well over $3 million to build.
Community Service Officers must be paid somehow.
Bart recovers only about half of its cost from train fares.

However, some parking lots, like Rockridge, Orinda, Mac Arthur, and others were around long before BART began to charge for parking, funds are obviously necessary. The money from parking is split: 25% goes to the police budget, 25% goes into maintainence (services such as elevator, esclator, and System Services), and 50% goes into the general fund.

In order for the services which many (including myself) demand, the funds must be raised somehow! Whilst we may not see an immediate improvment, I am pretty sure it's not being mismanaged... (Spokespoodle Linton Johnson's, the Board of Directors, and select others' salary excluded)

We should (hopefully) start to see improvments in the near future. It's a handy way to collect money and they
can honestly say they didn't increase fares to do so.

And people pretty much need to pay - local parking within a reasonable distance for free is almost (if not totally) non-existant. We've got a captive audience.

-M. Delgado


NEWS BULLETIN! Several BART Union Contracts will expire next year. Get ready to hear BART Management crying about having no money. One step they've FINALLY taken is to address the issue of people who don't pay, but instead walk out the swing gate (emergency gate, blue gate, side gate or whatever else one might want to call it. After MANY years of being told that BART is losing money to fare evasion, Management has suddenly realized they are losing TWO MILLION DOLLARS a year.

Station Agents have been instructed to tally the number of people who are using the swing gate. There are several catagories in the tally: ticket problems; no tickets; not enough money to add-fare; bikes; wheelchairs and one of the biggest offenders Strollers and children who are supposedly under five. Anyone out there ever see a 5' five year old?

It only took BART Management a little over one year to figure out how to stop the latest ticket fraud scheme. You know the one I mean. Detailed directions on how to falsify tickets was posted on this site and handbills with the same detailed directions were plastered all over the areas near Berkeley stations. When they finally put everything in place, they caught SIXTY tickes in one day at one station. SIXTY (60) per day times 49 stations. Well over TEN THOUSAND DOLLARS PER DAY.

So, get ready for the fare increase that BART Management will blame on the Union contracts instead of their own ineptness. The blame will fall on the shoulders of Station Agents who just let people out the swing gate because they are too lazy to do their jobs. Uhhhhmmmmm, according to some Agents who have posted here, Management has flat out told Station Agents to let people out the swing gate because "people are poor and our fares are high"; "it's good customer service"; "please 'em, don't squeeze 'em" and other equally idiotic reasons. The real reason Agents have been told to let people out the swing gate is that Management does not want to have to deal with customers who complain that Agents had the audacity to ask the person to PAY HIS/HER FARE!

BART ridership is well over 300K per weekday and close to that on weekends. Sales tax revenue is up. Fares are up. We have to pay to park at many stations. What else will BART Management be able to blame the budget shortfall on? Greedy Union employees. The frontline people who EARN their wages, as opposed to the layers of useless management whose jobs were created out of the ionosphere.

If you think the Presidential election hype will be bad, wait until you hear the stuff that BART Management is going to be putting out.

While you argue a fine case,

While you argue a fine case, your methodology is flawed. SIXTY persons were recorded at North Berkley. You multiply that by the total number of stations? SIXTY was the ABSOLUTE MAXIMUM on the day with the highest volume at ONE STATION. This assumes that the people in Orinda, Walnut Creek, San Bruno, etc. all falsify tickets. The net loss per day due to falsified tickets was, at most, about $1,000/day. (You might say it's still significant, but the actuall loss per year is THREE MILLION less that your estimate)

Don't bash "greedy" union employees. We have hard jobs, and dealing with people who come to us with FALSE information and try to cheat the system, assult us, and otherwise incite shit, I think we earn our pay. It costs a pretty penny to keep this system up and running, and parking revenue certainly helps us.

We don't lack the audacity to ask people to pay their fare, we just don't want a confrontation with someone who could potentially become violent. If you, (yes, you) are alone in a station and someone twice your size walks out the side gate, what are you going to do, bearing in mind this person might have a weapon, or just might otherwise not listen to you?

I thought so.

-M. Delgado

M. Delgardo: To make

M. Delgardo:

To make yourself listened to and believed,

are you a BART Station agent? Train operator? Police Officer? Administrator?

You could be throwing out bogus statistics that the everyday person may read as "fact" when, in fact, it's just made-up bullshit.

I've read a lot of entries on this site that amount to nothing more than "anonymous" personal assaults/insults and inudendos, so prove you truly know of what you speak, or shut up!

And, by the way, I don't disbelieve you as I am not a newcomer to the BART system and the significant other in my life is a BART police officer. While I've been told some disturbing things about the system and the job the police officers are told to do, I don't repeat them because they're not from my own BART experience.

Aren't all of us jaded by our own personal experiences?

And I'll ask again the question I posed in another forum that has yet to be answered:

Why such anger??

Of course BART isn't perfect - does perfection exist? - but even after living through the unbearably crowded aftermath of the '89 earthquake and then the '97 strike, I still support BART as a mostly safe and economical alternative to the freeways.

Speaking of being

Speaking of being well-informed and up on their facts, it might help your case just a little bit if you could read what's in front of your face.

The name's DELGADO. It wasn't just a typo, you've addressed me as Delgardo several times (twice in this post that I can count) and NEVER as Delgado.

Speak up or shut up? That sounds like anger.


-M. Delgado

My goodness Delgado, you

My goodness Delgado, you missed my point entirely. I said that Management was going to blame it on "greedy union employees". I believe most BART employees earn every cent. I've seen what Station Agents have to put up with and yes, I would not confront individuals who just walk out the swing gate. Whatever the maximum fare is, it's not worth getting injured or killed over it.

I'm on the side of the "greedy union employees". I can see how BART Management and it's Board of Directors mis-manage the revenue from all sources. After all, look at what Director Radulovich (sp??) spent fixing up 16th & Mission. Now the crack heads have a nice place to shoot up, turn tricks and urinate.

To the first Anonymous: I

To the first Anonymous: I appologize. I did misunderstand you and after re-reading this, can see where you're coming from. While I wish we could blame it all on Manangment, we can't. We do demand pay raises that (I feel) are deserved, but BART dosn't have the funding for that.

It's a no-win situation: If we don't get well deserved raises, it's common knowledge that job performance may go down. But if BART gives us raises willy-nilly, they'd be in even deeper than they are. Again, after re-reading your first post, I do believe an apology is in order. I apologize.

To the second Anoymous: It is VERY odd that Rockridge is FOUR TIMES cheaper than West Oakland. Now, I'm sure that Managment would claim (and this may be based on truth, I'm unsure) that it's either a supply and demand issue (basic economics - Rockridge rarely fills to the brink and West Oakland does), it's more plausable to charge more at Rockridge. More parking with higher rates equals mucho dinero, while less parking with higher rates equals less money.

Hope this helped and didn't just add to the madness. Or, helped clear up this confusion. What in Lord's name managment is doing, well, I don't think even the Lord himself knows.

-M. Delgado

You are well informed.

You are well informed. Another dirty secret is that if the tally also included race, the figures would be very telling, but not to station agents, of course.
The people that argue the most and use race as a crutch inevitably go out the emergency gate.

Don't kid yourself. The

Don't kid yourself. The Station Agents know exactly who plays the race card. But they certainly can't "profile", can they?

Yes, you are right. Although

Yes, you are right. Although Bart management does not want that point exposed. In their eyes, everybody pays.



You are so correct in saying that all these fees are just another way for BART to raise revenue. Did you know that BART has over 50,000 parking spaces? Do the math. What is 50,000 x 5 = $250,000 per day if they charged $5. Even at $1, $500k is still gravey for BART!!! They pay these parking officials a few hundred thousand per year to think up new ways to gouge the public.

BART is also known to over sell permits. I park every day at West Oakland and I pay big bucks for my single day reserved. There are many days that I arrive at 950 AM and there are no stalls to park in! I talked to a parking lot attendant and he said to get there earlier. What kind of help is that???!!!!! I paid for my reservation and gives me a smart ### answer like that.

I see all kinds of BART employees parking...probably for free too. They park in the taxi zone. How do I know this? I tried parking there one day when I saw a bunch of cars parked there. I came back and got a $25 ticket! I had my single day reserve permit on the dashboard. The other cars had BART employee business cards and no tickets!!! Is this fair???!!

The parking lot south of

The parking lot south of 35th Avenue is a private lot operated by the Fruitvale Village/Unity Council. BART leased the land to the council so that they could build on the land down to 37th Avenue. Since BART has a no-net-loss in parking when it comes to development, the 5 story structure was built to replace the lost parking on the east side of the station.

BART parking lots are expensive real-estate. You would be floored if BART charged a "fair-market value" on each stall at various high demand stations. West Oakland would be double or triple - and people would pay for it. Consider what it would cost for a day at a downtown parking lot.

Cut the crap!!! Expensive

Cut the crap!!! Expensive real estate you say!!! BART was built when land was cheap. BART was not built to make money on parking. The web site is Note the "gov". BART is in business to provide a service and make enough to put cash in the bank for reserves and pay ongoing expenses.

If I owned my own parking lot, of course i would charge fair market value, that is my business!

Isn't it odd that riders who

Isn't it odd that riders who park at West Oakland pay $5/day but those who park at Rockridge pay only $1/day?

It should cost you to pay to

It should cost you to pay to park because it costs people to ride the bus to BART. It's a simple question of equity for all riders. More importantly, no other US transit property provides free parking to its passengers. It's a luxury you should pay for. If you don't like it, then you should lobby for better public transit where you live or drive to work.

As for the difference between W Oakland and Rockridge: This is simply smart pricing of services. W Oakland is a high demand station because all trains go through it.

Finally, I wouldn't leave any car of mine all day in any BART lot. I pay for private parking services so I don't have to worry about whether or not my car will be gone or vandalized when I get back.

I agree. Everyone likes

I agree. Everyone likes West Oakland because all trains run through it so your chances of getting caught in a delay or having to wait are most minimal. I think it sucks though that BART charges for parking period. Except I can justify it at West Oakland because people drive in all the way from the east bay just to park there and take it through the tube because they save money and bridge far. Bridge Fare alone is almost a round trip ticket through the tube on BART.

You are wrong! Parking

You are wrong! Parking should be free!!! BART cost a fortune to ride. Why should we pay when it was free before!!!! You are a moron!

you are the moron. things go

you are the moron. things go up in price on a daily basis. simple supply and demand coupled with inflation. do you expect to pay 5 cents for a loaf of bread like in the early 1900s? no, so why should parking and transportation be any different? regardless of bart's cost to provide you with a ride to work, i guarantee you that if gas shot up to $30/gallon your bart ticket would shoot up a similar percentage even though bart runs on electricity, not gas. the reason is that there would be excess demand for bart if gas was $30, so they'd increase the cost of bart to make supply meet demand. the ferry and buses would go up in a similar fashion.

PUBLIC transportation should

PUBLIC transportation should be low cost so that the public, meaning those who do not earn money far in excess of what they actually need, can afford to ride it. Public transportation usually exists to serve broader goals so "public" also often means the system is subsidized. Through these subsidies Bay Area residents in particular pay for BART whether they use it or not through local sales taxes. Beyond that, there are other government subsidies. Costs should not necessarily increase in public programs such as this. Costs and expenses and profits do not have the same sort of meaning as for a regular business because of the subsidized nature of the operation and that it exists to serve public goals.

i don't disagree with you,

i don't disagree with you, but how do you explain the fact that bart consistently goes up in price? i don't have any historical information available, but i would guess that the cost of a bart ticket is at least 5x more expensive as it was in the 1970's.

given that there are a finite amount of bart trains that can run on any given day and that their are more tax paying (aka bart subsidizing) citizens every day, shouldn't the cost remain at a constant or even go down? i understand that the cost of electricity and maintenance needs to be factored in, but i would guess that the increased population of tax payers would cover those increases.

when gas hits $10/gallon, if the cost of a round trip bart ticket from walnut creek to san francisco is less than $20, i'll pay your bart commute for a week (not everyone's, just the first person who reminds me that i was wrong). i guarantee it will be more than $20, because if it was less it would be in such demand that you would struggle to find even standing room on a commute hour train. The only thing that can possibly throw a kink into my hypothesis is increased use of alternative fuels, but that's a risk i'm willing to take.

Well, it seems that BART

Well, it seems that BART goes up in price because the (fill in the blank) who run the system can't seem to keep their costs down and furthermore don't seem to try particularly hard to do so --- Hey, give everyone a 25% raise and then say you have to raise the rates. It sure beats working hard to keep the rates under control and finding others sources of funding. Try this: Make the pay of management dependent on keeping costs down for the riders and you might see some different results. Without something like that what is their incentive? One would hope that meeting the mission and intent of "public" transportation might be sufficient, but it hasn't happened yet.

You raise an interesting point about increases in sales taxes. BART must have this information somewhere, but again when you give away the store such increases may not be enough. Also, I am sure that new lines are terribly expensive to develop.

Gas is now about $3 a gallon and it costs nearly $9 a day for the Walnut Creek to SF roundtrip so with gas at $10 it may very well cost at least $20 a day for the trip, but I'm not sure what the point is. In your scenario, this trip at $20 a day will be relatively good since BART will have managed to keep the proportional cost down and having more people ride BART will seemingly be good. Afterall it's public transportation and should be used a lot. For my part, I'm glad I won't be riding BART if and when that ever comes to pass.

no other US transit

no other US transit property provides free parking to its passengers

Nonsense. Boston's suburban stations, including on the Green Line to Wellesley and Newton, provide free parking (and in land that's much more expensive than anything in the East Bay).

At the end of the day, people who work in the city can typically get a gallon of gas each way for less than a BART fare. Add in a cheap parking permit downtown in the city, and the expensive tickets that BART and city governments love to issue to hapless parkers, and for those who live on the peninsula, it's now cheaper to just drive.

That's what I started doing. I'm glad too. No more worrying about parking, finding a space, the stress of riding BART and dealing with nuts and perverts on the train, waiting for a delayed train, etc., etc., etc. Just quiet time in the morning with me and NPR news, and in the evening, a drive back whenever I feel like it on my schedule (not BART's).

If more and more people drive to work, and BART ridership collapses over time, perhaps the greedy bastards will get the message.

You gotta pay to play! West

You gotta pay to play! West Oakland is premium. last stop before the big City. Try parking in the City. $20 garage fee. $4 bridge toll. Dented/dinged doors.

I get on at West Oakland with an illegal cup of joe, scone, and my favorite trade rag.

On the way home, I read some trashy novel and chill out.

Yes, for $5 it is worth it. Plus you get the free entertainment of all the BART cuckoos! Ever notice all the nut cases riding trains??? I saw someone take a dump in the rear of a car once. Gross me out!

Don´t think I´m joking

Don´t think I´m joking when I say this. I WILL be watching for you, with your ILLEGAL food and drinks. The fact that you say that openly with such confidence irks me.

West Oakland, huh? When, not if, but WHEN I cite you for it, don´t even try and go to court to get it thrown out. I´ll be watching for you. And... We just love easy tickets!

lol, snicker, snitch, punk,

lol, snicker, snitch, punk, non-bart-person

go back off in your own jack yard, dude, or better yet, jump in front of a train.

noone here wants to hear your bravado

Not infront of my train. too

Not infront of my train. too much paper work

Why are you complaining

Why are you complaining about parking fees? Are you some libby communist? Do you get paid to work? Everything costs money.

First of all get to the station at 5 AM. It is empty.

Secondly, if you cannot park at Fruitvale, then why don't you drive to the Coliseum? I park there every day and it is never full. I see the cops there all the time too. There are occassional vehicle burglaries. But who care if you have insurance. I have yet to have my car broken into in 10 years of parking. I drive an old 940 Volvo wagon and do use a club. However, I would be careful there at night. It's not exactly a nice the safest place in town.

Thirdly, get a bicycle. This should solve 99% of your moronic problems. Or better yet walk!