QUESTION: what would happen if a bart train conductor passed out at the button?
i was wondering today, what would happen if a bart train conductor passed out at the button?
we all heard the story about the muni train that crashed into another one when the driver passed out from adult onset diabetics and poor diet and had it (the train) in manual override. worst crash in the history of muni i think...
what would happen if a bart conductor passed out? would the train just keep going? or would it stop at a station and just sit there until someone pushed the button?
Keep in mind that the MUNI
Keep in mind that the MUNI crash only happened because the train was in manual (cutout) mode. Back when the train control system was new (about ten years ago) a MUNI driver had stepped out for some coffee or something, and a train went two or three stations without incident before someone noticed and stopped it. At that point the ATCS opened & closed the doors. Now the driver needs to close the doors before the train will move (ATCS can't predict errant passengers, but drivers can potentially see them if they're paying attention). If a driver were to pass out in auto mode on the subway the train would likely be stuck at the platform until central control or another driver closed the doors.
This is likely the only time a MUNI train in auto mode has ever worked without incident. In fact the MUNI driver took the train out of auto mode because the MUNI auto control system contributes quite a bit to delays in the subway.
What happened at MUNI was because the driver essentially ran a red light (with the implicit blessing of central control) so that he could take advantage of the lengthy platform and let two trains board at once (double berthing). BART never double berths, and with any sort of positive train control (PTC), what happened at MUNI wouldn't happen at BART. Of course most railways consider PTC to be too expensive... and BART probably considers it too old fashioned.
Note that MUNI also has a "backup" train control mode where the driver does everything but speed limits (and potentially red lights) are enforced. Called "cab signaling", this system was used prior to the introduction of ATCS. At the section of track where the MUNI crash happened, the speed limit in cab signaling mode is 30mph (which is asinine, considering that the posted train speed limit on the street after the station is 5mph!). In cab signaling mode if a driver were to pass out with his/her weight on the throttle, the train would be brought to a halt once the driver exceeds the speed limit. Clearly this doesn't work well when you're in a station, but between stations this would likely result in a train being stuck between stations.
Let's not forget the large delays created on Friday (the 14th) because the outbound track between Embarcadero and Montgomery was closed to trains in auto mode, and the "turnback" past Embarcadero was tweaked. Real live humans were needed to move the trains outbound and create a semblance of service.
On BART? I imagine it would be a similar situation. In auto mode, it's conceivable that the train could proceed as if nothing happened. OTOH, if the drivers are needed to open and/or close the doors, the train would get stuck at a station. In manual mode, all bets are off.
If there is some system for enforcing speed limits (PTC or otherwise) and signals outside of auto mode, then you're pretty much going to be okay unless the driver passes out between a signal before the station and the station AND there's a train in the station.
I worry a whole lot more about BART's train control losing its shit and forgetting where the previous train is... and an accident like the one on WMATA (or like Doc Wattenburg predicted) happening.
In Road Manual (25MPH max) or
In Road Manual (25MPH max) or Yard Manual (10MPH max) the TO has to pull back on a manual control handle that is spring loaded, so if they passed out the handle would spring back to stop mode and the train would run it's programmed braking profile to a stop.
Unless the TO falls
Unless the TO falls backwards. What happened at West Portal was that the driver fell onto the throttle and the train accelerated.
It would be extreemely
It would be extreemely difficult for that to happen on a BART train. I have a hard enough time proping up the handle when I do certain tests.
there's no way to fall
there's no way to fall backwards, and no way to fall and keep the handle in the run position at all.
BART occasionally double
BART occasionally double berths trains, but only when something up the line is delaying traffic. If a train is held at Lake Merritt, they will hold trains at the previous stations (Fruitvale, Coliseum) until the problem is resolved. If the timing is wrong, they may hold one train at Fruitvale, ask him his length (central already knows, but this is a safety confirmation) and tell him to go to the end of the platform (the ten car marker). Then the train behind him can enter the platform. This happens so rarely, that TO's are super careful when they do it. There is no time pressure, since the train will be sitting in the station anyway and all schedules are toast. If there is room for the whole train, he'll open all doors in Road Manual. Otherwise he'll open just the doors in the lead car. For this he has to leave the cab, and manually open the doors (and announce to the rest of the train that the lead car has open doors for offboarding).
Correct. We do, but we don't
Correct. We do, but we don't try to if we can avoid it. Of course a late call for a hold when the following train has already departed a station and is arriving to a station with a short train already at the platform, there will be times where instructions will be given to go into manual mode in order to get a car into the station in order to let patrons off board. The tendency is to hold one train at a station if possible.
Your legs couldn't "fail"
Your legs couldn't "fail" while you try to hang on to the handle? :shrug: Unlikely, but so is passing out while running a train.
The problem (IMO) was not with procedure like the NTSB seems to believe. MUNI double berths at West Portal every single day. They used to do it in both directions, now they only do it inbound. Thanks for the faux safety measures guys!
The real problem is how a morbidly obese person could have passed a physical exam. My guess from looking at the pictures is that the driver was 300-400 pounds. At that weight, the odds say you're gonna have diabetes. If unchecked, yup your ability to do your job would absolutely be compromised.
I said there's no way to fall
I said there's no way to fall backwards, the TO's seat is against the back wall of the cab, if you fall, you have to either slump forward or fall to the side, either of which would cause the manual control handle to drop back to stop.
As mentioned, BART trains
As mentioned, BART trains don't operate in manual mode regularly (yards being an exception). Main mode through the system is done in automatic (ATO). An operator needs authorization to move their train in manual modes when on mainline. If something happened to a mainline operator and they passed out while moving, the train would profile down and stop at the next station and the doors would open. Granted the train would not depart that station since intervention is required by the operator. Most collision type accidents usually involve manual movement. The last few I can recall all had one train moving in manual, most notably, the collision at 12th Street some months ago.