Petition to Change BART Police Duties...
Would there be a way to get some type of political movement going to force BART to make BART Police patrol the actual trains? As I see it they are not doing their job if they are not either in the station or on a train. There is no excuse for any BART cop to not be either on a train or active in a station except for breaks. There also should be a detail of them that MUST stay on a train the entire time of their shift and ensure this by not giving them a BART Police car. Their shift would have to consist of going from one train to the next and doing a walk through of each train they are on.
Any other ideas?
I'm sure there are many
I'm sure there are many hardworking BART police officers out there, but I have to admit, I see more of them driving around in their cars than walking through trains. I think this is a big problem in our country actually. We don't really have "beat cops" anymore that patrol neighborhoods on foot and get to know the residents. I think BART could benefit greatly from "beat cops" who patrol train on a regular basis and get a feel for the riders and the types of people they need to deal with on the trains. Am I crazy?
I think you are right on.
I think you are right on. BART is a "beat" and should be treated as such. I would think that BART would want to get cops on the trains if not just for public safety but to keep an eye out for terrorism
They used to have more train
They used to have more train beats..
They are currenly understaffed (like most of the Bay Area departments). When they get their numbers back to where they should be, then the undercover and train beats will return.
Apply for BART Police or if you know good people, have them apply.
BART's Picky though.
http://bart.gov/about/jobs/job_105.asp
Sure you can! All someone
Sure you can! All someone would have to do is go to:
http://www.petitiononline.com/
Create an on line petition, email the link to all your BART buddies and have them do like wise and then send the pettion to the BART Board. Really easy to do.
I wonder how many of the
I wonder how many of the petitions on that website have actually been effective. My guess would probably be very few.
BART police are already
BART police are already required to do a minimum number of train walk-throughs every day. And, there are undercover officers in the system that you don't even know are there. Plus, there are facilities that are "off site" that need to be monitored (for security reasons) that absolutely require that officers have cars, and leave the stations in order to get to those places.
Yes, there are lazy officers that spend more time hiding than doing work (in any police department). But many of them do work hard. Just because you don't see them, it doesn't mean they aren't working.
Keep in mind that the average passenger will probably spend about 30-40 minutes in the system, with the vast majority of that time being on the train, while it's moving. There may be a 5 minute window of time when you are at any particular station, or area. And BART Police may be at another station, or in another area of the station than you. Considering how little your actual total exposure to the system (and more so your exposure to any one area) is on a daily basis, you just might not run into them. That absolutely does NOT mean they aren't there and aren't working.
I know some officers (in all departments) get their routines, where they tend to go to certain stations and do certain things at certain times. The smarter officers vary their routines daily, and generally don't do any one thing with regularity (to keep the crooks on their toes). This too can effect how often you do/don't see an officer.
Many people also don't see the officers because they aren't actively looking for them. Most people don't pay such close attention to their surroundings, and it's very easy to just walk past an officer without even realizing they were there (I've actually done this a few times myself, even though I tend to look for them). I tend to notice them more frequently, when they are around, and despite the fact that I almost always get on and off at the same stations at about the same times, I routinely see BART Police officers in some area of the system, multiple times a week. The guy sitting/standing/walking next to me? He probably didn't even see that same officer I just did, because he was mostly off in his own world, not really looking for them, and not really paying careful attention to his surroundings.
Also, keep in mind that because of our litigious society, the media, politicians, and Cop Watch type groups, officers have to do a LOT of documentation of their actions. Some guy just broke into a car at one of the stations, and a BART officer arrested him? Well, that officer will need his car to drive that person to the nearest jail to have him booked and processed (it is absolutely not feasible for BART to have their own jail, particularly because the size of the system, and the fact that it spans multiple cities and counties). This takes them away from the station for a period of time. Then, they have to spend a disgusting amount of time (it gets longer the worse the crime/arrest was, and a typical report can easily take an hour out of an officer's day) writing a highly detailed report, and filling out all kinds of paperwork, so the case won't just automatically get dismissed by the courts. Or worse, if the person tries to claim they were wronged somehow, the officer will need their report to cover their behind. So, unfortunately, this may mean that instead of walking trains, or patrolling stations, that officer is having to write a lengthy report. You can fault your elected officials and your lawsuit-happy fellow-citizens for how much time this paperwork takes from real police work.
I understand the sentiment behind your arguments. But, I have to laugh when I see some of these "ideas" people have, because it is painfully obvious that the proponents of these ideas have never worked a day in law enforcement, and/or have very little real understanding of how things REALLY work in police work (everything from individual, departmental, legal, government, financial, etc. factors). These ideas sound great to someone who doesn't know any better. But, in reality, they just don't work out quite like you'd think.
Thanks for shedding some
Thanks for shedding some light on the situation BARTBabe. I think that the amount of paperwork beat cops have to do and understaffing is a huge problem though. There has to be a more efficient way of transporting these jokers around, and letting the police get back to their duties. You're right I'm no cop and have zero experience in the field, but I can't help but think that with better staffing and an increased visual presence that it'd make some of these guys think twice before "acting a fool" on BART.
Increased staffing would be
Increased staffing would be a tremendous help. But it would also be a tremendous financial nightmare for BART. Seriously, they can barely afford to work with what they've got, when it comes to running the system. Somehow, BART would have to come up with a lot of extra money to be able to pay for a lot more officers. I do know that they are hiring officers, though. The problem is, it's difficult to find good candidates, and people who want the job. A lot of departments in the Bay Area (as well as across the country, I'm sure) are suffering from not having enough qualified candidates to fill the positions. You can't put more officers on duty, if you don't have people willing to fill the role!
The problem also is greedy
The problem also is greedy unions.
Shush! You'll wake
Shush! You'll wake Operator9!!
hey I noticed none of that
hey I noticed none of that BART employees are using their registered names. Did BART come down on the employees posting on here?
Greedy unions, or not, you
Greedy unions, or not, you can't fill a position with a person that doesn't want it (or doesn't qualify)!
And the "greedy union" and the inability to fill the positions are kind of mutually exclusive. Greedy union = higher pay and benefits for the officers. So, you'd think it would attract more candidates. Yet, they STILL have a hard time finding good people.
So, let me get this
So, let me get this straight, "BART police are already required to do a minimum number of train walk-throughs every day," What extactly is that number? And under what conditions do they not have to conduct this walk through. My money says, 'The cop police go to the platform, when the train is stoped walk though a car and jump off before the train takes off."
What me and many other would like to see, is high police visiabitly on the trains say, during comute hours. They way, I read BARTbabe's answer is, it just is not possible hmmmm.....it was possible after 9/11, it is possible it New York, and England.
it takes roughly 1 hour and 32 minutes to go from one end of the line to another, so a police officer could not spend 3 hours in a shift, to ride from one end of the line and back. Ok, I will even let you break that down into, to say from one end of C line and back or from one end of M line, which is how their beats are broken down, so an officer would ride his beat, during comute hours or maybe once or twice a shift. As C line is from Bay Point to West Oakland, for a total one way ride of: 48 minuties surely we can get an officer to make that run a few times during a shift?? They will spend more than that time, shooting the bull at one of the sub-stations or in one of those back rooms, so many of the BART station have.
Anyway, I do not think it is to much to ask, as a paying customer to see BART police actually riding BART and being more visable.
Just my rant..as I put on my flame proof suit.
I'm not certain on the exact
I'm not certain on the exact number they have do to. But, they do have to call it in to dispatch, so that there's a log that they did it. And the train has to be stopped at the station (the train operator is alerted that a walkthrough is being conducted), until the officer has walked through every car. They DO NOT just walk through one car and then exit the train. (I've seen officers doing these walkthroughs before, and they walk the entire train.) They don't get to weasel out of doing it, while it goes unnoticed by their supervisors.
You should also consider that, during commute times (when you want to see more officers patrolling the trains), the trains are often quite crowded. This poses another problem. How is an officer supposed to walk the train, when there are dozens of people standing in each car? He'd have to inconvenience multiple passengers by making them move out of his way, so he could walk by. And a crowded train? Forget it. Besides, it's a serious safety hazard. In that close of proximity, someone could potentially attempt to hijack something from his duty belt -- like his gun. The officer would have little room to react, especially on a crowded train car, and would likely inadvertently injure innocent passengers as a result.
Again, the logistics of having an officer solely on a train, or spending much of their shift on trains doesn't make sense. Most of the crime in the system happens at the stations, not on the trains (unless you want to count the minor stuff like eating/drinking). So, it makes more sense to put officers where the serious crime is happening. Also, if an officer is riding trains, and he needs to make an arrest, he somehow needs to get the arrestee to a station where he has a car available, so he can take the person to jail. It is dangerous and stupid to think that an officer should detain a criminal in a BART train, while the train rides back to wherever the officer is parked. The safest thing for the passengers and the officer is to remove the individual from the train as soon as possible. You can't do that when you make an arrest at Fruitvale, but your patrol car is at San Leandro.
Also, if an officer is riding trains, and a call comes out for back up, or an issue at another station they are supposed to be patrolling, they will be virtually ineffective at getting to the call. Let's say a call comes out from San Leandro, that someone is assaulting a station agent. The officer that covers San Leandro is currently on a train bound for Bayfair. He can't make the train turn around. He has to wait until he gets to Bayfair (a couple of minutes, potentially), then wait for the next inbound train (this could be 6 or 7 minutes away, or more on a weekend), ride that train back to San Leandro, and hope that the suspect hasn't killed or seriously hurt the station agent by the time he gets there. And even if the station agent is okay, the attacker has surely escaped by that point.
On that same note, I'll repeat a point I made in another thread, to someone who had a similar idea to yours. Let's say an officer is riding trains during his shift. He gets a call that the train ahead of his has a problem passenger (e.g. someone harrassing patrons, or someone got robbed on the train). I don't know if you've noticed, but when there's a problem passenger on the train, the train is held at the next station while the police deal with it. That means that all of the trains behind it, outside of the station, are blocked from entering the station. So, the problem train is sitting at the station, waiting for the officer who is now stuck on the train behind it, and has absolutely no way of getting to the call. See the inherent Catch-22? Just another reason that having officers ride trains during much of their shift poses a significant problem.
Many of the officers you saw on the trains after 9/11 were part of special teams. Those teams are still in use for other important operations throughout the system. But, the truth is that the visible presence was more to assuage the fears of the passengers. There were and are other things they can be doing that are more important and effective, which may or may not make them as visible. The high visibility post-9/11 was almost entirely political. There are a lot of things they're monitoring or dealing with that the average passenger never sees (or will see) that's far more important than walking through a train so you can catch people eating a hamburger.
Also, many times when they're in one of those "back rooms," they aren't "shooting the shit." They're writing those lengthy, detailed reports and filing out paperwork, to keep from getting sued, or having their cases thrown out. And when they're "shooting the shit" in plain view -- well, they're still watching what's going on, and they're still providing a visual presence and deterrent.
I'd love to see them more often, too. But, the thing is, I understand that it isn't quite that simple.
Oh, and one last note: I've been to New York multiple times. I've seen as many officers in the NY Subway system as I have in the BART system. And I have not ONCE seen an officer walking the subway train in New York, whereas I've seen it many times at BART. So, I guess it all just depends on your timing...
I didn't realize the BART
I didn't realize the BART police were not part of the highway patrol...the only place you ever see them is on the roads and highways. They are virtually non-exisistent on the trains and within the BART system. Occasionally, a BART officer chatting with the station agent drinking coffee.
I'm tired of all the extremely disruptive riders...young, drunk, foul, throwing food, loud music, rude to the ederly and disabled, bicycles taking up 4 seats, etc. etc.
What happened to community policing? I wonder if BART PD has ever heard of the word PRO-ACTIVE.
But then, maybe the problem starts with mama not teaching any manners in the home!
I think you need to rephrase
I think you need to rephrase your comment to say that *YOU* don't see them in the BART system (and probably because you don't notice them). Personally, I see them FAR more often on BART property than I ever have seen them on the streets. I've seen them driving around parking lots, walking trains, inside stations, on the platforms, parked in the parking lots, dealing with fare evaders, assisting robbery victims, helping a woman who fell down an escalator (at Montgomery), sweeping trains at West Oakland and Embarcadero, taking reports from someone who had their car broken into, pulling people over who drove through the bus zones... I could seriously go on and on.
Being more observant than you seem to be, I notice BART police, INSIDE the system, multiple times a week. I see them outside the system (i.e. on the roads) once every few months. And even on the roads, I tend to notice police cars very easily.
Just because YOU don't see them, it doesn't mean they AREN'T there. It just means you haven't been observant enough, or have had enough exposure to the system to really see them.
Most people don't really pay good attention to their surroundings. They might look around a little bit, but most people don't fully take in what's going on around them. They're usually rushing to catch their train, have their head buried in a newspaper or book or laptop, sleeping, staring off into space, talking on their cell phone, etc. And all of those are distracting, and would naturally prevent you from noticing many of the people and things around you. I've seen people walk right past officers. Many probably didn't even notice them (or forgot quickly that they did). Even I've been guilt of walking past officers and not even seeing they were there.
But, even though most people don't pay good enough attention, and don't see the officers many times that they are there, it doesn't mean the officers AREN'T there. It just means they didn't see them. Reasoning that they absolutely aren't around, just because you didn't see them is a pretty narrowminded and ignorant rationalization.
Also, think about this. How
Also, think about this. How often do the Police patrol your street. Where I live, I think I see a cop drive down my street maybe once a year. Does that mean he or she isnt patrolling my neighborhood? Maybe they are driving down my street while I am not home, or not looking out my window, or inside watching TV. Just becasue I dont see them every five minutes, doesnt mean they arent there or wont come if I call.
If you exit a station at 1130 am, that doesn't mean the officer wasnt there at say 11:25 am or 11:35 am... do you get my drift. Cops can't be everywhere at all times. There are 210 BART Cops for the 330,000 daily riders. Most cities have more cops than that for a population that size.
If anyone ever contacts the BART Police, they always respond. They have to because they are dispatched. The problem is that many people who complain about problems on the trains, dont call the Police for fear of "retaliation." If you don't want bad stuff to happen, you have to do you civic duty and get involved. The Police can't be everywhere at all times. They rely on citizens to be the eyes and ears ofthe community.
Also, think about this, many of the BART Stations have Parking lots that BART Police patrols to prevent auto thefts and auto burglaries. Does crime still happen? Sure it does, but it would happen a lot more if these guys were not patrolling the parking lots.
Also, the comment was made about our litigous society. This forces Police officers to spend 50% of their time doing paperwork. So, I a ten hour shift, that means five hours are spent filling out paperwork. Maybe, one ofthose five hours is the time you arrive at or exit a station.
However, I bet if you had a problem and called the Police, they would come running.
Before everyonethrows stones, you have to look a little deeper. It is easy to criticize, by tougher to find the truth. My advice, do a ride-a-along with the BART Police or the department of the city you live in. It is free and fun and very informative. It is also one of your rights as a citizen.
COPS: you can love them or hate them, but you all know you need them.