1/2 fare for standing on BART
In order for this 1/2 fare to work, is this,there will be a counting device [example laser, etc] , by both side doors and the door that connects the cars together they both would have these counters, anyway they would add and subtract as someone would enter or leave upon people entering and it adds up or subtracts to the total amount of seats ocupied, the doors on the side wont open to admit anyone else until someone exits thatwould be by pressing a button at the doors edge to exit, now if more people get in than seats available thats when tickets are issued by either bart police or agents ,called seat tickets . Thats the answere I know its not perfect but a start. This should be brought up at the current contract.
Ok, Some People are Just too
Ok, Some People are Just too Stupid to Live.
Oh so funny..
Oh so funny..
To bad you wernt standing on
To bad you wernt standing on one of those two muni trains that crashed into one another. At a full fare price even.
Wow. Insensitive and mildly
Wow.
Insensitive and mildly threatening...
Being a jerk on the internet may not be illegal, but making threats certainly is.
Yes I would agree HIS remark
Yes I would agree HIS remark was certainly a threat.
Jesus Christ, just shut the
Jesus Christ, just shut the fuck up already.
Wait...what....stand up fee?
Wait...what....stand up fee? What happens if 2 people who paid half fare are standing and theres only one seat? Who gets the ticket?
Why that would be the one who
Why that would be the one who is standing.
what if i spend the ride
what if i spend the ride crouching? how much of a lean onto another seat is still considering standing? what if i sit on the top bar of my bike?
Anyone who stands on one foot
Anyone who stands on one foot the entire ride should only have to pay 1/4 fare.
Additionally, anyone who stands on their hands the entire ride should pay -100% of the normal fare.
Now that is totaly
Now that is totaly insensative to the handicapped person with one leg, if it were me I would get up and offer them my seat.
You're the one who wants to
You're the one who wants to force the handicapped people to all be on a segregated train car filled with bicycles, so where the fuck do you get off calling other people "insensitive"?
Not at all this is what the
Not at all this is what the mind of a small thinker thinks or makes up.
You aren't even capable of
You aren't even capable of using the English language correctly, and you're calling me a "small thinker"?
Did it ever occur to you that wasting AN ENTIRE TRAIN CAR on bike space would be foolish, since there are rarely more than a half dozen bikes on any given train?!?
As long as your arms are
As long as your arms are hanging its still 1/2 fare. And in your case dragging on the ground.
honestly, the biggest flaw
honestly, the biggest flaw with your plan is that pregnant women, disabled people and the elderly could walk onto an SRO train, only have to pay half fare, and then they would likely be given a seat by someone. so the person sitting now just paid full fare but is standing, and the old lady paid half fare but gets to sit. this isn't fair. so what will end up happening is that able-bodied people that paid full price will refuse to give up their seats to those in need. or they will charge them half fare for the seat so that they get reimbursed for the fact that they are standing.
ultimately, i think what you will have to do is install an rectal pressure sensor into all riders butts. people could refuse the sensor, but then they pay full price regardless of whether they sit or stand. if you want the opportunity to pay half price, you must consent to the ass sensor surgery so that bart central knows when you are sitting or standing. but then you open a whole new can of worms:
there is a 50-something lady that i see on my morning train occasionally. she reads engineering magazines while sitting on the floor. she is sitting, so does she pay full fare since she is sitting, or half fare since she technically isn't taking up a seat? or maybe quarter fare, because sitting on bart carpeted floors is NASTY.
what if you start standing but later on the train clears out and you get a seat? do they prorate the standing vs. sitting time? if so, is it based on time, number of stations or perhaps miles traveled?
The biggest flaw with this
The biggest flaw with this plan is that it's a stupid idea that isn't worth discussing.
The only way it could possibly work is for some train cars to have seats and not allow standing, and to have other cars not have any seats at all and be standing only, and then to make patrons pay for their tickets as they entered the car, which would increase delay time in each station at least twenty fold, and would mean that you would have to eliminate the doors between the cars, AND hire a ton of new agents to patrol the cars and ask everybody for their tickets.
There is absolutely NO WAY this concept could be executed in the real world and maintain speed and efficiency, yet this guy keeps posting about it several times a week.
No way? I just came back
No way? I just came back from spending some time in Stuttgart (and suburbs). The buses in Baden Baden (and likely other burbs) have seat belts. The regional trains (S-Bahn, equivalent to BART) and longer distance (like Amtrak) in Stuttgart have separate classes of travel (1st and 2nd). On the S-Bahn trains there's generally a very small portion of the train dedicated to 1st class. On the longer distance trains (die Bahn) it's generally an upper level. Aside from the fact that American culture precludes keeping public transit clean and orderly, I'm not quite sure why you think that those ideas just wouldn't work.
Of course, being in a civilized country, the S-Bahn doesn't have any turnstiles whatsoever. Instead they rely entirely upon fare cops (as opposed to the worst of both worlds that MUNI does with expensive to maintain turnstiles and fare cops). Hell, you can eat and drink on most of the fabric seat equipped trains, and they're still cleaner than BART.
Of course, the Germans have figured out really basic things that BART engineers are simply too arrogant to fix... like proper track spacing. BART's got their tracks so close that they wear everything prematurely and create 100dB+ sounds...
1) We're talking about 1/2
1) We're talking about 1/2 fare for standing, not seat belts.
2) We're not talking about a service where you purchase tickets far in advance to reserve specific seats, like on long-distance rail.
3) We do not live in a country where public transportation is considered a national priority and is highly funded as it is in Germany.
4) In addition to not being able to pay for the added expense of hiring fare officers, idiots from both sides of the political spectrum are too obsessed with "personal freedom" to enact the kinds of laws we would need to seriously crack down on the various offenses that make BART gross.
5) If you have a problem with how messy and disgusting BART is, get them to open up their bathrooms and put trash cans back in the stations. The problem isn't just that Americans are messier, it's that BART encourages public urination and littering by removing the bathrooms and trash cans from almost every station.
1.) You're talking about
1.) You're talking about different classes of service. Same concept.
2.) Neither am I. The S-Bahn doesn't do reserved seats. It's a regional rail system *like BART*. First class seats in on "die Bahn" may be reserved, but 2nd class ones certainly are not.
4.) Use bona fide police officers to do fare enforcement. I realize there's not a lot of political will locally, but that doesn't mean it's impossible.
5.) Liverpool St Station in London has NO garbage cans whatsoever and is both busier and cleaner than most BART or MUNI stations. Go figure. That said, I think MUNI is far more disgusting on a regular basis than BART.
1.) Ok. 2.) From what I
1.) Ok.
2.) From what I remember from the last time I was in Germany (near Wurzburg) the train system in Germany is easier to enforce because it has 1st & 2nd class cars. Having specific cars be solely for 1st class or 2nd class patrons would add another level of confusion to an already confusing system, and force trains to delay longer in stations as confused patrons entered and exited cars trying to figure out where they needed to be. And what happens if there are more first-class patrons than there are first-class seats on a train?
4.) BART PD is already stretched too thin. Enforcing this junk would mean more officers would have to be hired which would kill any potential savings.
5.) I bet the Underground spends a hell of a lot more money on janitors than BART does. I also bet England funnels a lot more of their significantly higher taxes into public transportation.
My experience was that there
My experience was that there were maybe four 1st class seats on some ends of the S-Bahn trains (however there are two types of S-Bahn cars in use in Stuttgart, some are configured differently, and some appeared to be 2nd class only). First class on the Bahn ("die Bahn") trains was the upper level, 2nd class was the lower level. My guess is that a 1st class ticket could be used on either class. Going from Karlsruhe to Stuttgart, the train was mobbed with schoolchildren. People were parked on the stairs and in the aisles with no apparent problem. It's not problematic, and simply takes a bit of common sense (or experience) and decent signage (something that would benefit BART greatly overall). BTW, dwell times for the S-Bahn were not bad at all. Of course, they had about four doors per car per side. BART is fighting an uphill battle with only two sets of doors per car.
Likewise the Stansted Express (and I suspect most of the National Express cars) had first class areas as well, with no apparent confusion and dwell times weren't terrible either. Most of the rest of the world can handle having two classes of service just fine. BART patrons aren't any more stupid than transit riders in other areas, you've just gotta design the system with a semblance of logic and clear signage.
In New York (as with BART) the MTA is considering some articulated buses with three sets doors(!) vs the existing buses that only have two. There are already New Yorkers up in arms over this (despite the obvious advantages in dwell times). With the newly proposed BART car designs, you've already got the vocal minority of suburbanites whining that the extra doors will take away from the number of seats.
While I think that the seating/standing dichotomy is a bit silly, having some cars with mostly seats and other cars more oriented to standees is the way to go. As-is BART serves the schizophrenic masses. Long distance travelers want someplace to sit, and they take up lots of room but constitute the vast minority of BART riders. Intraurban trips are much shorter, and standing is much more reasonable. Reducing the number of seats and increasing the number of doors will speed up egress/ingress for the dense areas that BART operates in.
Proper proof of payment will speed things up too by removing the turnstiles as a bottleneck.
"Proper proof of payment will
"Proper proof of payment will speed things up too by removing the turnstiles as a bottleneck."
That would just move the bottleneck somewhere else.
People will still need to buy tickets and somehow have money deducted from them after each trip.
How do you propose that that would be done without a bottleneck occurring SOMEWHERE in the system?
And again, Germany taxes their citizens much higher than the US does, and puts much more money into Public transportation, and is a much more COMPACT country where cars are much less necessary than they are in the US.
People still need to buy
People still need to buy tickets for BART now. Think about it. The difference is that you wouldn't have to validate the ticket at each entry/exit. In Stuttgart I believe they don't have a zone system, but you can buy single trip tickets that are good for trips of up to three stops on the U-Bahn (1 EUR), daily tickets (19-21 EUR, good on the S-Bahn and Bahn), and you can buy monthly passes. There are more varieties than that, but those cover the basic needs.
Density plays into that a bit, but the city of Stuttgart (7,375 ppl/sq mi) is much less dense than San Francisco (17,323 ppl/sq mi), about on par with Oakland (7,126.1 ppl/sq mi). Stuttgart to Karlsruhe is a two hour trip (less if you buy tickets for the more costly super fast express trains) mostly through rural areas. Given that most areas that BART serves are far less dense than Oakland, I don't buy that POP would create any additional bottlenecks.
More than taxes, BART simply has fairly low fares. It took me about 25EUR to get from the Baden/Karlsruhe airport to Stuttgart, about 27GBP to go from Stansted to the East End, and about 7GBP to get from Heathrow to the East End.
I have a problem fixer for
I have a problem fixer for that also, I was going to suggest at a later date, but since you mentioned it, rergarding the restrooms,this is where the someone with the know how could make some money by selling a square box with a hole in it to the ones who wanted it and just use it at will on the train,then dispose of it at there get off station.
ENGLISH LANGUAGE
ENGLISH LANGUAGE TRANSLATION:
"Now that you mention it, I also have a solution for the public restroom problem."
"Because I am a psychotic right-winger with a bizarre sexual obsession for private enterprise, I believe that a knowledgeable entrepreneur could make some money by manufacturing and selling a square box with a hole in it as a sort of 'mobile restroom' that BART patrons could use to shit in while they were riding the trains, and then dispose of after they had left the system."
"Clearly this is a wonderful solution to the problem, since every BART patron I know would be overjoyed to have the person sitting next to them suddenly stand up and start shitting in a cardboard box."
Now, lets not be silly.
Now, lets not be silly.
You are the one who suggested
You are the one who suggested that people should shit in cardboard boxes on BART trains, and then carry boxes of shit with them throughout the system.
I didnt suggest that at
I didnt suggest that at all,my solution was to toss out the box,boxs out when the train stops at the next stop.Not carring such disgusting things around , as you suggested.
And what would they be doing
And what would they be doing with the box before they tossed it out?
Hmmm? Come on, you can figure this one out...
Would they be... carrying... boxes full of... shit... on BART?
GOOD JOB! You figured it out all by yourself!
Well, I have to admit I
Well, I have to admit I havent given it a great deal of thought, but since you need an answere now, you would hold it on your lap.
until you said that, i had NO
until you said that, i had NO IDEA that you hadn't given it a great deal of thought... i'm sorry, but i would shit my pants on bart before i would drop my pants and shit in a cardboard box on bart.
i think the better option would be to have adult diaper dispensers, and you can pay by swiping your bart ticket.
ow ow ow ow my funny bone
ow ow ow ow my funny bone
BEAR NOT LIKE TO SEE MAN POOP
BEAR NOT LIKE TO SEE MAN POOP ON TRAIN
HUMAN SMELL BAD ENOUGH ALREADY WITHOUT POOPS
ALSO WHAT IF MAN MAKE WET POOP IN BOX AND THEN DROP BOX IN TRAIN???
OR WHAT IF POOP BOX HAS LEAK BECAUSE OF INFERIOR CHINESE MANUFACTURING?!?
BART ALREADY DIRTY ENOUGH WITHOUT WET POOPS ON CARPETS
perhaps an entrepiner, a
perhaps an entrepiner, a hardworking america citizen, could think of this already If you compost the boxes to be "GREEN" and make The berkeley hippies feel happy in their bone
looks like Bear not know
looks like Bear not know how,
1) Caps lock is on
2) How to turn off Caps lock
3) Typing in caps in the forums, means shouting, which should be used sparingly.
or
he is an a$$hole who does care a damn about what others think.
Hater keep typing this "Hater
Hater keep typing this "Hater thinks Bear is an A$$HOLE" till Bear keep typing in CAPS.
Wait, you want bear to KEEP
Wait, you want bear to KEEP typing in CAPS?
WTF?
What are you complaining about then?
I was trying to write in
I was trying to write in broken english like bear. I want him to stop shouting on this forum, by typing in caps.
Actually that gives me yet
Actually that gives me yet another idea, instead of these disgusting boxes that some might purchase BART should have yet another special car called excuse me [FART] cars and there would be special seats with wholes in them of curse with flaps this way the user would be less conspicuous.
FAILTROLL IS FAIL
FAILTROLL IS FAIL
The S-Bahn tracks are spaced
The S-Bahn tracks are spaced closer together than BART tracks, S-Bahn uses standard rail gauge (4 ft 8 1?2 in) where as BART uses a Wider (5 ft 6 in) gauge to keep the trains more stable and minimize the chance of trains being blown off the tracks in high winds.
What I was referring to was
What I was referring to was not the gauge, but how BART spaces the tracks in turns. Typically you widen the distance between tracks to allow the wheels to adjust where the track contacts the wheel (to keep the wheel rotational speed about the same between sides of the axle). BART spaces their tracks too close together says an ex-BART engineer.
http://bartrage.com/node/1782#comment-16765
I don't buy that wide gauge track is needed (especially since the original justification was stability for Golden Gate crossings, but that's no longer an issue). In Stuttgart they've redone some of the tracks to convert to standard gauge. BART using non-standard gauge is an example of how well BART functions in spite of the number of self-imposed setbacks that exist.
You see this is what I mean
You see this is what I mean by being programed, cant think beyond what is layed out in front of him,we would have never gone to the moon if they had this same attitude.
we got to the moon by
we got to the moon by shitting in boxes?
LOL. Best post ever.
LOL. Best post ever.
You see this is a true
You see this is a true thinker and highly educated.
Then please stop interupting
Then please stop interupting the rest of us would like to solve the problems at hand,so take the dictonary out of your pocket look up the word RUDE and UNWANTED.
Hmmmm... under Rude and
Hmmmm... under Rude and Unwanted all it says is "sick of it".
I guess to sum it up if you
I guess to sum it up if you are either standing or your arms are hanging down its still 1/2 fare,unless you change you mind and decide to hang from the ceiling then its 1/2 fare,or if you decide to ride up front with the driver its still 1/2 fare,but and only if you decide to strap yourself to the front of the train its free.