The Bottom Line with BART workers
(a follow-up to my previous posting about unrealistic expectations of BART employees)
Here's the bottom line I cannot seem to get a fair response to. BART folks just keep getting off-track and talking about "management and concessions"... That is so off-track it is pitiful. Folks STAY ON POINT here.
BART workers cost government roughly $120,000/year per employee. This is the fully-burdened labor cost when you take into account pensions, health care and many other programs accessible to BART employees. This is WAY TOO HIGH relative to other workers in similar kinds of industries. This is what the public objects to. We really don't care what they had to give up or not. Their wages have grown out of proportion to others in our society doing the same kind of work. That is what must be brought into balance. We as a society and an economy just CANNOT CONTINUE TO SUPPORT THESE OUT-OF-PROPORTION WAGES.
And I hesitate to answer some of the respondents who say I MUST make less than BART employees and therefore have an ax to grind. (Actually my wage is around $145K... Now I know someone will object and say that "that's not fair" and I don't care about lower-paid workers. That is also not true.)
And to those who say they can't afford to pay their mortgage...Well maybe, just maybe, your expectations of having home of a certain caliber, recreational vehicles, fancy entertainment systems and nice car(s) are a little too high for your level of education/training and accomplishments in this area. You might just have to cut back and be on par with other cultures in the world where they do with far less. (We are also having to cut back, BTW.)
-A
Knock it off all ready. I am
Knock it off all ready. I am so sick of the $120k I didn't make, the nice car I don't drive, the nice home I don't own, and all the supposed "grown up toys" I don't have either. Yes i make a good wage and yes I work at least 6 days a week if not more to earn that wage. I am the only income in my household and support not only my family but also friends when they need financial help. We are all not greedy and resentful Bart employees. I do my job and I do answer/talk to the passengers with respect even after I get called the "B" word or even had the 1 finger salute. It's sad that in these economical times a war of words develops. I know what it is to loose everything....."I'VE ALL READY BEEN THERE"....and I will make damn sure that does not happen again (all prior to Bart employment). So if you call me greedy you're damn right, I'm not loosing again. So, bash me all you want, but I will stay strong! Oh, by the way, my wage for last year $65,000. Alot of money but not enough for your take on what my life expectations should be! I am being realistic!
Nobody said that everybody
Nobody said that everybody was making $120k. It was a average salary+benefits. Some make less and some make more.Unfortunately you are one who makes less.
Wages + Ridiculous medical
Wages + Ridiculous medical benefits + ridiculous pension benefits = $120K for the average (median) BART Union employee.
There are hundreds of thousands of people in America right now who would be more than happy to do what you do for far less money and far fewer benefits, and the fact that the unions refuse to compromise and are still threatening to STRIKE when they have it so much better than most Americans do is exactly why the public is AGAINST THE UNIONS right now.
Sure, Management sucks and is overpaid and are a pack of liars, but YOU GUYS ARE OVERPAID AND UNDERPRIVILEGED AS WELL.
BART is ROTTEN TO THE CORE, and the system's problems are the fault of management AND labor.
I wish every single employee at BART could be fired so we could just start over!
OoH YES, WISH FOR THAT SO WE
OoH YES, WISH FOR THAT SO WE can START OVER....AND SPEND even MORE!!! Genius!!!
Because of the current
Because of the current financial situation in the United States of America there are large numbers of unemployed individuals, particularly in California, who are willing to do any kind of work they can get their hands on for any money they can get at all.
I have no doubt that if a new workforce were built today, wages & benefits could be significantly lowered (while still remaining fair and competitive with wages & benefits at transit companies in other cities) and the jobs would still attract far more applicants than there are positions.
Times have changed, and unemployment in California is at 12%.
There really are hundreds of thousands of people who would be willing to do most of those jobs for less than they are currently paying.
But those savings will NEVER
But those savings will NEVER be pased on to the riders. Look at the bridge tolls. Every increase was temporary to pay for some sort of retrofit or something. Once those projects were completed the increases were to be recended. Still waiting for that. Once the fares or tolls are increased they never get recended, once you lose something you never get it back. That's why we are fighting so hard to keep what we have. When times are good we are unrewarded, but when times are bad we are punished.
So what? Perhaps the money
So what?
Perhaps the money saved could be used to improve the cars, or replace some of the shit-stained seats.
Even if the money saved is just put back into the system, I would rather get a better product for my money than to continue to support the ludicrous benefits and salaries while the system falls into ruin.
The costs of a training a new
The costs of a training a new worker (not only in systems, tests, etc., but in workflow and team dynamics) would outweigh the savings of hiring someone in new. That's why . A blitzkreig is never really a good corporate strategy. But yeah I get your point.
Yeah, I know. And to be
Yeah, I know.
And to be honest a lot of the jobs would actually be difficult to hire for. The electricians, mechanics, and other techs actually aren't generally paid as high as they could be in the private sector and require loads of training and experience before they can do their jobs.
The only people that could be easily replaced are probably station cleaners, and maybe Station Agents.
"Because of the
"Because of the current..."-Master Chief
Point taken. And the solution is for everyone to make WalMart wages? The Unions are willing to make bilateral concessions. BART is traying to bust the Unions. I repeat, is not about the money. The Unions will agree to a fair contract.
PLEASE NOTE: The following is not spam, my wrists are tired of answering opinions and conjectures:?There are a few people posting the same content at BART rage over and over and over again. They post new topics, comments, and responses that only change in tone, structure, and maliciousness. Yes, BART employees are some of the highest paid in the nation. But no, they are not the highest paid and survey after survey conducted by BART management asking patrons about their satisfaction with BART's employees and performance shows a high level of satisfaction. BART employees continually win APTA competitions and rank no 1 in the nation. That includes EVERY classification of employees. Two assessments conducted by the employer and by the American Public Transportation Association, who-and I state this respectfully-probably know a bit more about how to assess rail workers than someone who is commuting to and from work.?Excuse us for our inability to help you understand what Linton is talking about when he mentions "Beneficial Past Practices" and "wasteful work rules" as we don't understand him either. Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask Linton to clear your inquiries. What he meant is anybody's guess. What the Unions know is BART constantly violates the contract and the Unions have to constantly grieve those violations. The Unions regularly win those grievances and are compensated by the impartial arbitrator a sum of money. Depending on the violation and number of employees affected, the award can get monetarily substantial. Was the point that the Unions cannot make grievances out of thin air clear? Or that an impartial arbitrator who awards or rejects the grievances is always present? Is it clear that BART wants to ban past, present and future grievances? BART included language in their latest proposal mutation that clearly states Unions cannot grieve.?Yes, the Unions made concessions during the last contract regarding health benefits which continue to get higher every year-yes, concessions were made when the economy was healthy but health care costs were skyrocketing.?Are the Unions are of touch??A $760 million proposal does not materialize out of thin air, it involves bilateral concessions. Yet, Master Chief and BartHater among others ridicule or ignore a sum that greatly surpasses what management claimed to need, and move on to sidetrack the Unions' efforts with another post.
Sorry "hum" but you are
Sorry "hum" but you are spamming the board at this point.
Repeating the same fucking thing over and over regardless of context is spamming by any definition.
We already discussed this SAME FUCKING POINT. In fact that is a thread about it.
Just because many BART employees are overpaid does not mean that their wages should be dropped to Wal-Mart levels.
Wal-Mart wages are too low.
BART wages (for some jobs) are too high.
Stop trying to set up straw men, and stop spamming.
Key word. Other city's. You
Key word. Other city's. You said it yourself that we live in California. Where the cost of living is higher than the rest of the country. Wages are higher here too right?
Wages for BART workers are
Wages for BART workers are significantly higher than those for workers who do similar jobs in other transit systems even after being adjusted for cost of living and inflation.
"BART hourly wages for key positions — such as train operators, station agents, mechanics and track equipment operators — are already the highest of any rail system in the nation, after adjustments for regional cost-of-living differences, variances in work hours and generous pension payments the district makes for the employees."
http://www.contracostatimes.com/ci_12698325
Master Chief and company
Master Chief and company rehashing his opinions yet again and and still conjecturing that the Unions are not willing to make bilateral conssesions. The Unions are not willing to let management violate a legally binding labor contract. Master Chief would like everyone to be a happy WalMart employee.
PLEASE NOTE: The following is not spam, my wrists are tired of answering opinions and conjectures:
There are a few people posting the same content at BART rage over and over and over again. They post new topics, comments, and responses that only change in tone, structure, and maliciousness.?Yes, BART employees are some of the highest paid in the nation. But no, they are not the highest paid but survey after survey conducted by BART management asking patrons about their satisfaction with BART's employees and performance shows a high level of satisfaction. BART employees continually win APTA competitions and rank no 1 in the nation. That includes EVERY classification of employees. Two assessments conducted by the employer and by the American Public Transportation Association, who-and I state this respectfully-probably know a bit more about how to assess rail workers than someone who is commuting to and from work.?Excuse us for our inablitity to help you understand what Linton is talking about when he mentions "Beneficial Past Practices" and "wasteful work rules" as we don't understand him either. Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask Linton to clear your inquiries. What he meant is anybody's guess. What the Unions know is BART constantly violates the contract and the Unions have to constantly grieve those violations. The Unions regularly win those grievances and are compensated by the impartial arbitrator a sum of money. Depending on the violation and number of employees affected, the award can get monetarily substantial. Was the point that the Unions cannot make grievances out of thin air clear? Or that an impartial arbitrator who awards or rejects the grievances is always present? Is it clear that BART wants to ban past, present and future grievances? BART included language in their latest proposal mutation that clearly states Unions cannot grieve.?Yes, the Unions made concessions during the last contract regarding health benefits which continue to get higher every year-yes, concessions were made when the economy was healthy but health care costs were skyrocketing.?Are the Unions are of touch??A $760 million proposal does not materialize out of thin air, it involves bilateral concessions. Yet, Master Chief and BartHater among others ridicule or ignore a sum that greatly surpasses what management claimed to need, and move on to sidetrack the Unions' efforts with another post.
Sorry "hum" but you are
Sorry "hum" but you are spamming the board at this point.
Repeating the same fucking thing over and over regardless of context is spamming by any definition.
THE CONTRACT EXPIRED.
THE MANAGEMENT CANNOT VIOLATE A CONTRACT THAT IS NO LONGER IN EFFECT.
We already discussed this SAME FUCKING POINT. In fact that is a thread about it.
Just because many BART employees are overpaid does not mean that their wages should be dropped to Wal-Mart levels.
Wal-Mart wages are too low.
BART wages (for some jobs) are too high.
Stop trying to set up straw men, and stop spamming.
Use your fucking brain for once.
my last job paid me 42,000 a
my last job paid me 42,000 a year plus the same medical benefits as BART so i guess u can say i was making 90,000 a year working as grocery clerk for your FREINDLY SAFEWAY....man i love UNIONS.... maybe you can apply for a union job and stop bitchn or better yet apply w/ BART
I would be willing to bet
I would be willing to bet there are plenty of college educated BART employees, doing the same or a similar job to what you do in the private sector, for far less money. As I've pointed out *many* times, every four years BART trots out the Station Agents and Janitors as examples of overpaid employees. However, you don't hear them mentioning the wages of electricians, elevator/escalator techs, engineers (structural, software, etc.), or even, for that matter, corporate attorneys. For years now, these wages have fallen far below the private sector, at least 20%. Once there's a new contract, and BART starts posting rank and file jobs again, take a look at the starting salaries (they won't post these jobs now because it would contradict their $120K a year myth).
Every BART employee except non-union management gets the same raises and benefits. Yes, BART can probably start outsourcing more and more of these jobs as people leave and they can't fill them, but, except or short-term projects, consultants cost more.
Public anger is centered on
Public anger is centered on the SAs, TOs, and cleaners.
Perhaps the mechanics, techs, and engineers should band together to force the union that represents the jobs that have the public up in arms and force them to take some concessions to help quell the public's outrage.
And BART isn't currently listing jobs because they need a contract for new employees to sign in order to give them a job, and until the negotiation gets worked out they will not have a current valid contract for new hires to sign.
Oh, and on a mathematical note, starting salary is not an indicator of the average. The starting pay could be $1 a month, and if the high-end pay was high enough the average could still be $120k.
Besides, people can go look at the posted salaries for all BART employees now and see that the starting pay for SAs and TOs is around $56k-$68k depending on experience, plus free pension money plus obscenely good medical care. It's the pension and medical costs that drive up the average COMBINED salary numbers.
"Public anger..."-Master
"Public anger..."-Master Chief.
The following statement is sarcasm:
"Oh, yes. Those darn Unions who secretly created HMOs just to see medical benefits go up!" A quick search will also show what BART actually pays for labor, say WikiPedia for instance. Don't forget the revenue generated by real state at BART. Do you think the transit villages are rent free? And now there is more revenue generated by parking and increased fares. Joe the plumber could not afford to advertise at BART, advertising is another source of revenue. Look at the back of your "promotional tickets." And BART still cries poor as they refused the Unions much larger bilateral proposal. This is not about money for BART! I am sorry Master Chief, but I have to respectfully disagree with your opinions and conjectures.
PLEASE NOTE: The following is not spam, my wrists are tired of answering opinions and conjectures:
There are a few people posting the same content at BART rage over and over and over again. They post new topics, comments, and responses that only change in tone, structure, and maliciousness. Yes, BART employees are some of the highest paid in the nation. But no, they are not the highest paid and survey after survey conducted by BART management asking patrons about their satisfaction with BART's employees and performance shows a high level of satisfaction. BART employees continually win APTA competitions and rank no 1 in the nation. That includes EVERY classification of employees. Two assessments conducted by the employer and by the American Public Transportation Association, who-and I state this respectfully-probably know a bit more about how to assess rail workers than someone who is commuting to and from work. Excuse us for our inability to help you understand what Linton is talking about when he mentions "Beneficial Past Practices" and "wasteful work rules" as we don't understand him either. Perhaps it would be a good idea to ask Linton to clear your inquiries. What he meant is anybody's guess. What the Unions know is BART constantly violates the contract and the Unions have to constantly grieve those violations. The Unions regularly win those grievances and are compensated by the impartial arbitrator a sum of money. Depending on the violation and number of employees affected, the award can get monetarily substantial. Was the point that the Unions cannot make grievances out of thin air clear? Or that an impartial arbitrator who awards or rejects the grievances is always present? Is it clear that BART wants to ban past, present and future grievances? BART included language in their latest proposal mutation that clearly states Unions cannot grieve.Yes, the Unions made concessions during the last contract regarding health benefits which continue to get higher every year-yes, concessions were made when the economy was healthy but health care costs were skyrocketing. Are the Unions are of touch?A $760 million proposal does not materialize out of thin air, it involves bilateral concessions. Yet, Master Chief and BartHater among others ridicule or ignore a sum that greatly surpasses what management claimed to need, and move on to sidetrack the Unions' efforts with another post.
Sorry "hum" but you are
Sorry "hum" but you are spamming the board at this point.
Repeating the same fucking thing over and over regardless of context is spamming by any definition.
The Transit Villages will need to be operational for a long time before they make back the money spent on building them and begin to become profitable.
Ad revenues for BART are ridiculously low, because advertising of all kinds through BART has a poor rate of return.
What the hell is your point?
Here's my synopsis, BART
Here's my synopsis, BART Management wants us to strike so that they can save on the operating costs for being shutdown for several days. That's probably the reason why they don't want a "Cooling Off" period and offered such a sh**y proposal. They want us to reject this and cause a strike to save money. And this offer states that they want to furlow us for 48 hours in order to save costs so I'd say we give them their 48 hours all together. 48 hours = 6 days!!!
Sounds good to me. I could
Sounds good to me.
I could use a 6-day vacation.
What management is calling
What management is calling "furloughs" is actually just taking away 6 days of either holidays or vacation days every year, not actually taking 6 days off.
After talking to a guy with
After talking to a guy with the union, he says some of the biggest problems with the BART proposal was the changes in the grievance, and appeals processes. He rattled off a lot of other things, some negotiable some not. Their biggest frustration being that the papers won't give the unions the ability to explain some of the items or correct incorrect reports. (I guess one of the papers said they were getting some raise of 7.5%, it was 0.75% which they didn't ask for and only comes out to 20 something cents.) There was a lot more that was talked about, I didn't find them (what they are fighting for) "greedy" or any of the other words used on this board. They have been trying to discuss solutions, and are upset at how the spinmeister describes some items (most have already been discussed on th board already.) Bunch of stuff already mentioned and some new to me.
If you go to www.seiubart.org
If you go to www.seiubart.org you can look at a PDF of the summary of the proposal from BART to the Unions.
Not a very helpful
Not a very helpful document.
I'd much rather see the text of the Union proposal to BART.
I'd like to see the full document so I can try to figure out for myself why management rejected it.
I know it's not very helpful,
I know it's not very helpful, but that's what we've been given to vote on, I don't know of anywhere you can get the unions proposal to BART, because of the negotiating ground rules set by the mediator I don't think they can give it out.
How can the workers be asked
How can the workers be asked to vote after reading a summary of the proposal, prepared by some negotiator. This may or may not be accurate and has a good chance of trying to influence the voters.
Ask management that, that's
Ask management that, that's all the info they gave us.
It really is ridiculous. How
It really is ridiculous. How could they expect anyone to vaote for this with so little details? Seems to me more and more everyday that they hope to force us to strike. I swear I think Dorthy Dugger and the consultant were brought in specificaly to try and bust the unions.
Both sides seem to be doing
Both sides seem to be doing their best to try to get a strike going.
ALL the workers I have talked
ALL the workers I have talked to feel BART is leading it that way. Workers get no pay for striking, management does.. It's like taking a pay cut when striking (aka) self furlough)..
In other words.. The workers do not want to walk. Most have families.
Let me preface this by saying
Let me preface this by saying I think Dugger's a flat-out crook for managing the way she does. And she's got no one to deflect it to; ultimately this is her ship, and she's made no show of good faith on the matter and that's as inexcusable as anything. Cynics have no place at the bargaining table as far as I'm concerned.
But I have to ask, as a plebe and a BART passenger, and as someone who really does want to see the BART workers get a fair shake because I love and am overall very proud of the service they provide....
If they don't want to walk, why is there the problem with a wage freeze? I, for one, got told flat out last year that I was getting no wage increase and no bonus. And I worked my ass off last year to prove myself and I've worked my ass off this year to show it wasn't a fluke and I still have no reasonable expectation of a raise next year.
And I pay like $400 / month or something (I don't want to know, it hurts my head) for my medical, dental, and vision benefits (glad that I have them!), and you can be damn sure from '08 to '09 the amount I pay went up, by a modest amount but, um, that's way more than BART employees pay. So I have a hard time sympathizing with the idea that they might have to pay more than $89 / month for their family, or whatever it is. If it's more than that I apologize, but if it's anywhere close to the percentage of my salary I pay, please do correct me.
And yeah, my *salary*, not take home, is a bit more than $50k, so I feel lucky to make the money I do. And I have a research-driven Masters' degree, the result of seven years at a pretty damn good university. So like I get the idea that you have to have qualifications to have a job, and I'm not gonna question yours if you won't question mine. But in spite of all that, I gotta ask....
If BART workers, who are well paid and incredibly well compensated through their benefits packages don't see that times fucking suck and for everyone and the tide is going out and you don't want to strike and the way to save your ship is to make your boat a little lighter... How can you hold a straight face and say "we've gotta get raises and you can't expect us to pay more for our benefits like everyone else"?
the first proposal by the
the first proposal by the represented workers (union) was for no change in the agreement (which meant no raises or bonus. the only people who get a bonus are management) for two years. they would then revisit the agreement and take a look at where we were at in any economic recovery. it possibility could have been seen as weakness instead of concern, and was rejected.
Nobody has read the text of
Nobody has read the text of either proposal.
Nobody knows how accurate the summaries of the proposals are since they were written by biased parties.
quite hate'n do like i did i
quite hate'n do like i did i apply .......... why does everyone want hate on BART workers cause they decided to apply......so they picked a job that can make it through a ression i not hate'n..... wait'n for you to call BART
But the management must have
But the management must have give the Union negotiators the full contract, right?
I think they only give them
I think they only give them changes they want and agree to the previous language. Maybe someone else here knows more. I've only seen this document. We have a union VP visiting us soon at the shops in Oakland I'll ask.
It is a fact that at BART you
It is a fact that at BART you can work as hard you can and get the same pay as someone who does nothing at all. If workers actually worked full time, the BART ride would be far less expensive, and there would be far fewer employees needed. Overpaid for the skill set they have, and willing to demand more, union workers are ALLOWED to be children.
Supervisors do nothing, in fact they add to the problem. There is so little work expected out of a supervisor, some talk the whole shift to other lazy workers.
There is no one who cares about this.
The union should police its workers, but they will support a member who does not work.
Management is non-existent, as lazy workers apply for and get management positions. An actual management education is not required.
The board of directors sits in the meetings and they too take for doing little.
There are few who care, willing to put up with a poorly run system, not knowing it could be far better.
What you are talking about is
What you are talking about is indeed true. Eventually, BART breaks the spirits of even the most productive employees to the point that it is hard to care what happens. It's not just that BART pays good and bad employees the same, the bad employees actually come out AHEAD.
Managers know who the good workers are. These workers are overloaded with work. It is constant and unrelenting. I know many people who NEVER get to take a break during the work day and others who work through lunch without pay. Meanwhile, the bad workers are left alone. Managers don't want to deal with them so they don't.
Good workers are expected to keep up their skills, take classes on their own time, etc. with absolutely NO reward for doing so.
Additionally, bad employees get to take long vacations--3, 4, 5 or even 6 weeks at a stretch. Managers don't allow good employees to do this because they can't be gone that long. So, if you're a bad employee, you get a nice long vacation. If you're a good one, you get one, sometimes two, weeks at most; or even just a day here and there.
Finally, the bad employees pretty much come and go as they please (at least on the admin side). We sit and watch as managers and bad employees comein 30, 45 or 60 minutes late EVERY DAY with no penalty. So, on one side, you'll have a good employee working through their lunch while a bad employee is on the train to go shopping in San Francisco--both make the same amount of money. No reward for the good employee, no punishment for the bad.
Management could care less. When a good employee finally gets fed up and goes bad, they just hire a consultant to do the work.
Too bad they are NEVER
Too bad they are NEVER hiring. I would work for the system and actually be a decent employee, but they only hire from within and have idiotic requirements. It's RETARDED.
There is suppose to be a
There is suppose to be a complaint line where this totally wrong work environment can be reported. They do not advertise it well, or often.
The truth is, I fear, that our whole system needs to be replaced. From those in Congress, all the way to the lowest Station Agent, who is never at their station.
People who ride BART don't on the whole respect the system, those who work at BART have far too many who are allowed to do little, or nothing at all.
The hourly union foreworker does not care (with no back-up, if there was actual discipline). Management does not care, the board of directors is ignorant, or unwilling to formulate change.
BART is a welfare agency. Is it possible to reform this way, other than the collapse of our system?
As long as they fire the
As long as they fire the useless management and the idiots on the Board of Supervisors too it sounds like a good idea to me!!!
For sure the board of
For sure the board of directors and every management person throughout BART is part of the problem. Where it acually begins is hard to define.