www.bart.gov -- their ideas for the new generation of BART cars ARE DEPRESSING; no one will have a seat
They basically look like the old BART cars with white walls (that will be gross in two days) and very few seats. I want a seat for an hour plus commute two ways. I can't believe BART would even think of doing this to the passengers. We are getting screwed. I can't believe BART is going to buy 700 cars at one time instead of buying like 30, putting one 10-car train on each line, and testing the trains to identify defects, weaknesses, etc., and then buy more cars. I swear the BART website under their projects sounds like such a bunch of b.s. Let's see, how long have they been working ont the East County extension now? 30 years? They definitely should have finished that before thinking about Warm Springs. Why doesn't BART FINISH SOMETHING before it starts SOMETHING ELSE.
I'm really surprised that NOT EVEN THE DOORS ARE WIDER. What morons. Maybe someone who ACTUALLY RIDES BART EVERYDAY should design the new cars, not these friggin BART MANAGEMENT idiots who are so out of touch with the passengers this system is supposed to support.
If ridership is growing, increase service don't make us all uncomfortable. I spend over $10.00 a day on BART, we deserve better than SRO only.
Notice, BART just IGNORES the gignormous, dangerous luggage issue.
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I hear you. I think bart
I hear you. I think bart management thinks all riders transit the transbay tube during rush hour. I don't think I would ride bart anymore if I knew I had to stand during the entire 45 minute ride each way.
I second that. I don't care
I second that. I don't care if I'm on a PLASTIC seat versus a cushioned one -- but standing 53 minutes would be awful.
God we're all so oppressed.
God we're all so oppressed.
Yes, because it's so much to
Yes, because it's so much to ask for government funded institutions to accommodate the quality of life to which its public is accustomed to. Let's all do away with central air and plumbing because JEEZ it's not like there's entire continents who have it worse off!
Shut up.
If the quality of life that
If the quality of life that the public is accustomed to is unreasonable, then why should it need to be accommodated?
The public is accustomed to padded seats and carpeting, but after decades of use those things clearly aren't working any more and need to be removed. Why should BART be forced to hold back from updating just because the public is used to something else?
What I don't understand is why BART keeps paying money to consultants to try to come up with new ideas instead of just copying the train designs of an existing system somewhere else.
What about the designs for the Tokyo subway?
It looks better than the bullshit that BART is proposing now.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/6/66/Tokyo_subway_interior.jpg/499px-Tokyo_subway_interior.jpg
My god, this new design looks
My god, this new design looks like shit! I agree with the poster that said that service increases should go hand in hand with ridership increases. It would be a bitch to do the BPB - SF commute daily, standing both ways. If anything, these new designs will cost ridership and drive it elsewhere. Actually, AC Transit's transbay service looks pretty good compared to the new car design...
Perhaps these new cars with more standing room and fewer seats would best be suited as the "bike / luggage car" that many posters here have been floating around?
I'd go with the "bike /
I'd go with the "bike / luggage" car idea. Lots of room for the stuff and few seats to boot.
What about cars with treadmills/ellipticals? They could be tied into the electrical system. People could get a workout during their commute and provide energy for the train. Maybe even give them a credit based on kwh produced.
OK, J.K.
> provide energy for the
> provide energy for the train
On that subject:
Was there any mention of solar roof panels anywhere in their proposals? I wasn't able to find any.
This would be a huge win for the amount of times the trains sit/move in the sunlight out in the East Bay if they could put back into the rail what they're generating similar to how the C cars put the braking energy back into the rail.
I couldn't believe the
I couldn't believe the designs that were submitted. I like sitting down more and more as I get older and older.
Solar roof panels for BART cars are silly, and I'm going to do some silly math to prove it. I might have made some errors, and I would appreciate anyone pointing them out to me if they see them.
Shortly put, solar photovoltaics simply do not produce enough power to make them worthwhile. Paving the right
of way might do it, though.
BART provides 1,255,541,000 passenger miles of travel each year, using 300,453,720 Kilowatt Hours in that same year.
That works out to about .239 kilowatt hours per passenger mile. Let's assume that the average speed of a BART train is 25 mph. That passenger mile will be travelled in about 2.4 minutes.
So, you need to generate .239 kilowatt hours of power in 2.4 minutes for a single passenger. For a solar panel that is 15 % efficient, with solar flux at about 1000 watts/square meter, that's about .239 divided by .15 times 25 square meters of solar panel, or about 40 square meters of panel for each passenger.
That's about 10 x 35 feet, or about half of the roof of a bart train (roughly). That's at best about 1/30th of what is needed for a car full of passengers.
So a day of bart is about 3439838 passenger miles. Assuming a 12 hour day, and the same .239 kilowatt hours per passenger mile, that's 822,000 kilowatt hours/day, or 69,000 kilowatt hours/hour. That's 450,000 square meters of solar panel required to completely power the BART system. That's about 95 acres of solar panels, edge to edge, to power the whole system (not quite as bad as I thought).
BART has 104 miles of track, so a ribbon of solar panel about 8 feet wide and 104 miles long could conceivably power the system. Might want to double that to 16 feet, because it would have to collect enough power to operate at night.
Not a huge win :-) Don't get me wrong: I think we ought to pave most of the Nevada Test Site with solar panels, but you have to be realistic about how they operate.
doesn't every little bit
doesn't every little bit help? i haven't checked you math, but lets say you are correct that 95 acres of panels is needed to power the system. if you are able to install even one acre, that is more than 1% savings on electricity. with the huge amount of money bart spends on electricity, even a 1-2% savings is no small cookies.
Indeed, 1% savings would be a
Indeed, 1% savings would be a good thing, but it would be rather expensive to implement, compared to other measures.
Contrary to "Killer Dick" Cheney's assertion, the primary aspect of an energy policy is conservation and efficiency. In this report from the BART website:
http://bart.gov/docs/BARTenergyreport.pdf
.. BART and PG&E outline energy conservation projects for BART that could almost HALVE the power used by trains as they move people around the Bay Area. The cost of this improvement is about 157 million dollars, with break-even at 11.5 years. That same 157 million dollars will buy you approximately 31 kilowatts of solar panels, at approximately five dollars a watt.
This means that it is about twice as expensive to install solar power than it is to improve the energy efficiency of the cars.
Now, at some point, after you've made all the easy improvements to the cars and their energy efficiency, and start getting to expensive measures, solar power becomes the best choice. But BART isn't there yet.
Once again, my math is fallible, so if anyone sees any mistakes, I would be glad to hear them.
All the cars put braking
All the cars put braking energy back into third rail, not just the C Cars.
Looking at the top of a BART
Looking at the top of a BART train the roof is dirty, corroded and scratched up from rain, dirt, rocks, etc. I wouldn't think solar panels would be very effective in the environment a train operates in every day.
that is a very good point.
that is a very good point. if they installed solar panels on car roofs (or anywhere for that matter) they would need to keep them CLEAN. i have a couple solar contractors as clients and they pointed out to me that with most types of solar technology, a single bird crap can wipe out 90% of that panels efficiency.
I would think that on
I would think that on above-ground stations BART could install panels on the station roofs, to at least power the lights & signs at that specific station.
The outset cost would be high, but they might be able to get some stimulus money to help pay for it,
either your link is wrong, or
either your link is wrong, or this is a pathetic attempt at spam - boopiejones