Don't know jbap, but I made you laugh, so my job here is done. ma'am... *tips hat*
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- John Lennon
Submitted by MalcoveMagnesia on Wed, 12/19/2007 - 1:34pm.
I'm the one vote (so far) for "BART is liable".
Juries can be easily swayed. And in personal injury cases the lawyers only have to convince a majority of the jurors. Even though I believe Elaine should've paid attention to where she was stepping and is somewhat at fault, it doesn't matter how much the injured person was or was not paying attention: whoever has the deepest pockets is gonna have to offer to settle or they will get hit with a massive damages award.
So if Elaine presses her case, she surely will get money out of it.
Possibly. However they must show that BART knew the dangerous situation existed. That'll be hard to do.
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Submitted by MalcoveMagnesia on Wed, 12/19/2007 - 1:56pm.
Nope. Won't be hard to do.
I've served on a personal injury jury before. The way it might go may be like this: Elaine's lawyer subpoenas up a random BART maintenance worker or station agent and ask something like "BART is aware the floors are made of marble/granite/concrete slabs and therefore are aware that even the slightest amount of moisture, like the morning dew, could make the floors slippery, yes?", to which the BART lawyer would object to the argument somewhere along the lines of "duhhhhhh".
Jury awards massive damages in favor of Elaine.
And BART may end up having to install nappy carpet in all the stations (while they're ripping the nappy carpet out of all the BART cars).
Submitted by boopiejones on Wed, 12/19/2007 - 2:29pm.
maybe you can sway some jurors that way, but there are alot of people (myself included) that are getting sick and tired of frivolous lawsuits. you could never sway me in a case like that, unless you could provide me with proof of one of two things: 1) bart had been notified of the spill and failed to clean it in a timely manner or 2) a bart employee actually caused the spill. absent that, i'm siding with bart.
stop and think about it this way for a minute: a solicitor comes to your door on a rainy day and slips on your front porch. or maybe it is your kids skateboard. or maybe another solicitor spilled coffee there earlier in the day. should they be able to sue you? maybe i need to move to texas, but you enter my property at your own risk.
ok, in all seriousness, you had me until the "stop and think about it this way..." part, because unfortunately I think you could be held liable. not 100% sure, but I think...
I love this country but egad man, we're a screwed up lot aren't we? :)
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Submitted by boopiejones on Wed, 12/19/2007 - 4:50pm.
i agree with you that you probably could be held liable in california. and i think that is pretty sad - that is why i made the comment about moving to texas, where you can shoot and kill someone just for being on your property (or something like that). i hardly doubt a texas jury would give a rats ass about a jehovahs witness breaking an ankle on my doorstep - and that is how it SHOULD be. it's MY porch - enter at your own risk and watch your freakin step!
bottom line is that a property owner shouldn't be held liable for someone else's carelessness. now if i were to booby-trap my property for the sole purpose of ensnaring jehovahs witnesses and unemployed tree trimmers, that is another story.
I'm simply not convinced that you can slip FORWARDS while walking at a normal pace. I talked to a professor of Kinesiology at my university about this and here are some cold hard facts:
Whilst walking, the vast majority of people keep their center of gravity behind the foot they step forward with, and therefore slip on their ass and not their head. While running, however, your center of gravity is in front where you plant your foot. So unless our friend Elaine was running (keep in mind she has mentioned that it was crowded when she stepped off the train), it seems unlikely that she would have slipped forwards.
Either way, it's not BART's responsibility to be combing the platforms at commute time to look for misplaced beverages. It is the responsibility of the passengers to look before they step off the train. Unless Elaine has some vision problem which she hasn't told us about, my vote is NO!
Post Script: In case any of you are confused about this "slipping" principle, here is a link to a montage from America's Funniest Home Videos that clearly demonstrates the physics of falling on your ass - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZ4jLtDqFY
I'm guessing the fact that you would even bother doing a Bart Rage straw poll on this issue is evidence of how empty your life is. It seems like you spend an awful lot of your time on this website. I'm only on it because I'm looking for witnesses and/or other people who have been injured. There's a whole world out there outside of Bart Rage.
I wasn't asking for pity or anyone's opinion, but I've gotten your unsolicited opinion anyway. Point taken. Don't you think it might be time to let it go? Isn't there any other way for you to spend your time? There must be some insect you can step on or some homeless person you can kick. I'm a firm believer in karma, particularly the instant kind. Here's a perfect example of it. I'm not normally hostile, but your viciousness certainly brings out the worst in me. Trust me, I'm no Pollyanna, nor would I ever want to be, but I hope I don't ever get to the point you seem to have gotten in life.
Submitted by boopiejones on Wed, 12/19/2007 - 9:19pm.
wow. there are others here that have been way more viscious than shrapnel. just because she put up a poll now you're all pissed? it seemed to me like a fair and diplomatic way to get people's opinions, rather than all the name calling and whatnot that stemmed from your original post.
i understand that you didn't come here asking for anyone's opinion, but did you honestly expect people to not reply to your post unless they were a witness or have fallen themselves? if you've done any lurking at bartrage or any other web forum for that matter, you'd know you were going to get opinions from both supporters and dissenters.
I've honestly never lurked at bartrage or been in any web forum before, so it was a shock to find all those comments. I only found bartrage because I did a Google search and saw someone else's posting about their injury at BART. As I explained to Spice, now that I understand, I will do everything I can to try to avoid it. It's not like I've led a sheltered life, but I did grow up in the whole hippie era, which perhaps gives me a different outlook on life.
I'd really be interested to hear your answer (and others') on the question I posed about if it had been someone blind. Thanks.
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*sigh* and to think I defended you Elaine. If all it takes is a simple poll, which by the way isn't derogatory to you in any manner - it's simply taking the pulse of the people using BARTRage, to make you lash out at people then I truly hope you DON'T become any more vicious.
Shrapnel is here so much because she helps RUN THE PLACE, in case you hadn't noticed. As for the whole world out there, who do you think is patrolling the stations and trains and parking lots you use (and slip in)?
(*ahem* assuming of course you DO work Shrapnel and I haven't misunderstood your job) ;)
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Sorry, Spice. I don't like to see myself getting this angry either. But, as you previous pointed out, I never asked for anyone's opinion and feel like a lot of people came down pretty hard on me. If you reread Shrapnel's comments to my original posting (which I just did), she was exactly being kind. The straw poll just put me over the edge. I'm not someone who spends a lot of time online and I honestly didn't know I would get any responses other than what I was looking for. I certainly know that now and will do my best to avoid putting myself in a similar situation in the future. For me, it's a ugly side of life that I'd rather pretend doesn't exist.
Here's a question I would like to pose to the Bart Rage community. So, if this had happened to a blind person who only had a cane and not a seeing eye dog (and I've seen several of them at BART), would it still be the blind person'a fault?
Thanks for calming down and the apology. It's a rough lesson to learn but I think you have - putting yourself out there on the Internet (i.e. posting in a forum) throws the doors and windows wide open for all sorts. Consider yourself lucky you learned that lesson here at BARTRage where yes, some people were rude, but wow... you have NO idea what people can be like in other forums and chatrooms. This WAS Pollyanna, comparably speaking.
There's a lot of ruthlessness, raw anger, emotional, and disgusting people in the world... and most of them have Internet access!!!
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Submitted by boopiejones on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 1:46pm.
i don't think it would be any different if the slipper (slippee?) was blind, unless, of course there is some obscure ADA rule i don't know about that requires public agencies to roll dry carpeting out whenever they see a person with a red-tipped cane.
besides, the blind, cane toting population that i have seen on bart do not rush into or out of the trains along with a giant herd of passengers. they walk fairly slowly and typically wait until the herd has exited. they walk slow enough that they could probably walk right through a quart of 10w30 on a marble floor and not eat shit.
from my point of view, the key is whether or not bart knew about and purposely neglected the specific puddle you slipped in. they can't stop every person in the world from spilling liquids on the platform. take away liquids and some douche will invariably spit or pee on the platform causing someone to slip. take away their bladders and someone will empty their colostomy bag (i've seen that happen. not on bart, but on a sidewalk in berkeley). i don't know about you, but i'd rather slip in coffee.
If BART did enforce it's No Food or Drink policy (and I checked again this morning and that's exactly what the signs say), don't you agree the chance of injuries would be reduced significantly? I think it would only take one fine for each person to get them to stop (or just seeing someone else get fined). I don't know if you saw my posting about the number of people I counted with coffee (and I didn't count water bottles because people usually carry them with the cap screwed on), but don't you think 43 people in a 48 minute period, at only one of four exits to one station (and it's not even one of most trafficked stations), is an indication that there's a problem? According to an Examiner article on 11/28/07 about the Peet's Coffee kiosks opening at BART, the station I was counting at (Downtown Berkeley) has an average weekday exit count of 11,175 compared to Embarcadero (where my injury occurred), which has an average weekday exit count of 33,453. I would actually rather take my chances with the much reduced chance of encountering spit or pee (of which I've seen neither).
You say, and I quote, "the key is whether or not BART knew about and purposely neglected the specific puddle I slipped in." Please reread my original posting. That's why I was looking for witnesses. There might have been someone who saw and reported the spill earlier and, although it may be a long shot, perhaps BART didn't get around to wiping it up right away. Maybe the maintenance person was busy with something else. There's always a possibility.
Since you also seem to be friendly with Shrapnel, and in case she didn't see my response to her two comments that no BART police report was filed, could you please let her know that a report was taken by a really nice BART police officer named Jeffrey Zwetsloot (#510). He even called me the next day to see how I was doing and, unless he was lying, said that he was going to close out the report. The card he gave me shows his voicemail number as (510) 464-6599 (51075#) and the main telephone number as (877) 679-7000. I'd reply to her myself, but I'm getting tired of defending myself.
Can we just call a truce and go our separate ways?
Submitted by boopiejones on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 4:04pm.
i am "friendly" with shrapnel because i am also a moderator here at bartrage.
it is illegal to eat or drink on bart. it is NOT ILLEGAL to carry liquids or food on bart. i suppose it is possible that the person who spilled the coffee wasn't even doing anything illegal. they may have just been bringing the coffee with them to drink later. a long shot, i know. but the point is that BPD cannot ticket someone just for transporting coffee (correct me if i am wrong). you counted alot of people holding coffee cups, but how many people did you actually see drinking coffee?
and for the record, i don't believe i ever said you weren't looking for witnesses claiming that bart neglected the spill. i was just reiterating my belief that you don't have a case (or can't sway me as a juror, at least) unless you can prove negligence.
For the record, the signs say NO FOOD OR DRINK, not No Eating or Drinking. Do you honestly think the riders carrying PAPER coffee cups are planning to just hold the paper coffee cup during their commute, and wait until they exit the station to drink it? Wouldn't the coffee get a little cold? (You'll probably say they don't like their coffee hot.) If they truly don't intend to drink it on BART, why don't they put their coffee in a thermos and carry it in their bag or briefcase, or some paper or plastic bag? If nothing else, at least disposable paper and styrofoam cups should be banned, because if they're dropped, the entire contents will more than likely spill. At least the hard plastic and stainless steel travel cups have screw on lids that are more likely to stay on if dropped. And, in case you ask, yes, I did keep count of the disposable paper or styrofoam coffee cups versus the reusable hard travel mugs. During the six periods I counted, there were 83 paper or styrofoam versus 51 reusable hard travel mugs.
I can see there's just no point in trying to discuss it with you so, again, why don't we just go our separate ways.
Submitted by boopiejones on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 6:19pm.
i think they say "no food or drink" because it is hard to make a picture to represent "no eating or drinking." if you are going to post a warning, i'm sure there has to be an associated picture and braille so that our illiterate and blind friends don't get unnecessary citations. "no smoking" is easy - a cigarette with smoke coming out of it and a redline through the whole picture. think about it - how do you draw "no eating or drinking?" a person with a burger in their mouth and a soda in their hand? ok fine. now is the person a guy or a girl? african american, asian, hispanic, caucasian? straight or gay? i smell a lawsuit coming on.
i started writing this paragraph jokingly, but about half way through realized there is probably some truth to it.
anyway, the real point of my reply is that there are alot of signs on bart that make no sense. there are "make your seats available" signs that are purposely written vaguely because they really can't force someone to give up a seat to the elderly. signs on the escalators that say "walk holding the handrail" when certain people swear walking will break the escalators (you know who you are).
i carry some sort of food or drink in my backpack everyday on bart. i even once carried a trader joe bag with a 9x11 tray of enchiladas in it. why have i never been cited?
Submitted by Shrapnel on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 6:44pm.
It is against the law to CONSUME food or beverage, not possess it. And walking on escalators won't break them... but it might break the old ladies holding on to the handrail for dear life... after you shove her out of the way.
Submitted by boopiejones on Fri, 12/21/2007 - 7:39am.
The signs on the platforms say "no eating or drinking" but the signs in the trains say "no food or drink.". So how does that work? I can possess food on the platform but cannot consume it but then when my train shows up I have to somehow get rid of the food without consuming it, presumably by throwing it in a trash can (remember bart has limited trash cans due to that splinter group of terrorists that allegedly targets american trash recepticles). So how do I do this? Say I am holding (but not consuming) my starbucks and my train shows up. My only options are to a) exit the station, chug my coffee and then wait for the next train or b) pour it on the floor and get on the train. Maybe it IS barts fault!!!
Submitted by masters on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 10:17pm.
This was posted before.. The Act of ...
640(b)(4) California Penal Code : Smoking, eating, or drinking in or on any system facility or vehicle in those areas where those activities are prohibited by that system.
It's legal to have coffee or even drop some along the way. Well they might go after me for vandalizm for pouring coffee on the floor. But it would not be the "no eating or drinking" ticket.
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Submitted by BARTholomew on Fri, 12/21/2007 - 3:03pm.
Wow.
Elaine-
You fell. Check. It didn't feel nice. Check. You blame everybody but yourself. Check. BART and the world at large owes you a favor for your ouchy. Uhhhh...
No.
The wide array of reactions you have witnessed first hand is an adequate representation of a jury. That said, there would be no decision in your favor. Your case is reminiscent of Swiss cheese (read 'holes'). If I were you, I'd chalk this one up to not minding your surroundings. For being careless. The alleged puddle didn't come to you...you came to it. Try watching where you're walking. For being so keen to detail (who else wastes as much time as you counting coffee cups in the system and endlessly arguing on a forum you swear you spend no time on?), surely you would notice a puddle! Christ...if not, you must never escape a rainy day without a scraped elbow and a skinned knee, eh?
I've dealt with too many people who have gone to great lengths to be compensated for their lapse in judgement. For their mistake. BART closed the case, why don't you?
Submitted by sick of assholes on Fri, 12/21/2007 - 4:18pm.
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
i bet you're one of those people who wasn't very popular in school and now it makes you feel really important to hide behind your computer and pass judgment on everyone else. and it looks like you've got a whole bunch of loser companions to keep you company. i've never seen so much verbal diarrhea in one place. what idiot started this poll anyway? didn't your mom ever tell you "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?"
Submitted by boopiejones on Fri, 12/21/2007 - 6:39pm.
and you're not hiding behind YOUR computer??? we all kinda are. i'm a moderator here, but were not the morality police. it's ok to be mean, just keep it on topic. your post above? not on topic. nice first try. practice makes perfect.
Submitted by Shrapnel on Sat, 12/22/2007 - 1:38am.
Well, now thats funny! "sick of assholes" registered through the same IP as Elaine registered through! Yeah, Elaine, change up your typing format a little and register using a different e-mail address. Just give it a rest. You posted something in a very opinionated forum, you got an opinion, which you didn't agree with, and now you've stooped to the low-level name calling and viciousness that you and your few supporters have scorned to no end.
Oh, and the idiot who started this poll (myself) didn't even vote in it. I asked a question. I didn't "say" anything.
Submitted by boopiejones on Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:46am.
i originally referred to "sick of assholes" as "elaine" but then i changed it because it was just a hunch and i didn't want to be mean if i was wrong. damn!
Submitted by BARTholomew on Sat, 12/22/2007 - 10:30pm.
...well said, especially 'i got 5 on it.'
I think we can finally put this topic to bed. Elaine/asshole/whatever-name-she/he/it-creates-next could very well disappear indefinitely after Shrapnel outed him/her/it like that. Well done, Shrapnel! Clearly a 'straw poll' is a good way to do some house cleaning...or at least provide entertainment.
Submitted by Train Operator ... on Thu, 12/20/2007 - 6:13pm.
The signs say you are SUBJECT TO CITATION not that you will BE fined...insert dead horse here. You think you have a case, run it by a Lawyer (free consult) and see what they say. Your lawyer can suopena the records if they want to. treat the whole matter as an educational experience and see how it turns out. The worst that can happen is you forget to send us a postcard from hawaii and I'll pout for about a week.
How hung do I have to be?
How hung do I have to be? o.O
LOL I swear that sounds like
LOL I swear that sounds like it SHOULD be coming from jbap.
Don't know jbap, but I made
Don't know jbap, but I made you laugh, so my job here is done. ma'am... *tips hat*
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"Life is what happens while you're busy making other plans."
- John Lennon
Yeah.... I resemble that
Yeah....
I resemble that remark...
stop lookin' at me
jbap21
I'm the one vote (so far)
I'm the one vote (so far) for "BART is liable".
Juries can be easily swayed. And in personal injury cases the lawyers only have to convince a majority of the jurors. Even though I believe Elaine should've paid attention to where she was stepping and is somewhat at fault, it doesn't matter how much the injured person was or was not paying attention: whoever has the deepest pockets is gonna have to offer to settle or they will get hit with a massive damages award.
So if Elaine presses her case, she surely will get money out of it.
Possibly. However they must
Possibly. However they must show that BART knew the dangerous situation existed. That'll be hard to do.
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Nope. Won't be hard to do.
Nope. Won't be hard to do.
I've served on a personal injury jury before. The way it might go may be like this: Elaine's lawyer subpoenas up a random BART maintenance worker or station agent and ask something like "BART is aware the floors are made of marble/granite/concrete slabs and therefore are aware that even the slightest amount of moisture, like the morning dew, could make the floors slippery, yes?", to which the BART lawyer would object to the argument somewhere along the lines of "duhhhhhh".
Jury awards massive damages in favor of Elaine.
And BART may end up having to install nappy carpet in all the stations (while they're ripping the nappy carpet out of all the BART cars).
maybe you can sway some
maybe you can sway some jurors that way, but there are alot of people (myself included) that are getting sick and tired of frivolous lawsuits. you could never sway me in a case like that, unless you could provide me with proof of one of two things: 1) bart had been notified of the spill and failed to clean it in a timely manner or 2) a bart employee actually caused the spill. absent that, i'm siding with bart.
stop and think about it this way for a minute: a solicitor comes to your door on a rainy day and slips on your front porch. or maybe it is your kids skateboard. or maybe another solicitor spilled coffee there earlier in the day. should they be able to sue you? maybe i need to move to texas, but you enter my property at your own risk.
boopie, you had me at
boopie, you had me at hello.
ok, in all seriousness, you had me until the "stop and think about it this way..." part, because unfortunately I think you could be held liable. not 100% sure, but I think...
I love this country but egad man, we're a screwed up lot aren't we? :)
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i agree with you that you
i agree with you that you probably could be held liable in california. and i think that is pretty sad - that is why i made the comment about moving to texas, where you can shoot and kill someone just for being on your property (or something like that). i hardly doubt a texas jury would give a rats ass about a jehovahs witness breaking an ankle on my doorstep - and that is how it SHOULD be. it's MY porch - enter at your own risk and watch your freakin step!
bottom line is that a property owner shouldn't be held liable for someone else's carelessness. now if i were to booby-trap my property for the sole purpose of ensnaring jehovahs witnesses and unemployed tree trimmers, that is another story.
I'm simply not convinced
I'm simply not convinced that you can slip FORWARDS while walking at a normal pace. I talked to a professor of Kinesiology at my university about this and here are some cold hard facts:
Whilst walking, the vast majority of people keep their center of gravity behind the foot they step forward with, and therefore slip on their ass and not their head. While running, however, your center of gravity is in front where you plant your foot. So unless our friend Elaine was running (keep in mind she has mentioned that it was crowded when she stepped off the train), it seems unlikely that she would have slipped forwards.
Either way, it's not BART's responsibility to be combing the platforms at commute time to look for misplaced beverages. It is the responsibility of the passengers to look before they step off the train. Unless Elaine has some vision problem which she hasn't told us about, my vote is NO!
Post Script: In case any of you are confused about this "slipping" principle, here is a link to a montage from America's Funniest Home Videos that clearly demonstrates the physics of falling on your ass - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEZ4jLtDqFY
Dear Shrapnel, I'm guessing
Dear Shrapnel,
I'm guessing the fact that you would even bother doing a Bart Rage straw poll on this issue is evidence of how empty your life is. It seems like you spend an awful lot of your time on this website. I'm only on it because I'm looking for witnesses and/or other people who have been injured. There's a whole world out there outside of Bart Rage.
I wasn't asking for pity or anyone's opinion, but I've gotten your unsolicited opinion anyway. Point taken. Don't you think it might be time to let it go? Isn't there any other way for you to spend your time? There must be some insect you can step on or some homeless person you can kick. I'm a firm believer in karma, particularly the instant kind. Here's a perfect example of it. I'm not normally hostile, but your viciousness certainly brings out the worst in me. Trust me, I'm no Pollyanna, nor would I ever want to be, but I hope I don't ever get to the point you seem to have gotten in life.
wow. there are others here
wow. there are others here that have been way more viscious than shrapnel. just because she put up a poll now you're all pissed? it seemed to me like a fair and diplomatic way to get people's opinions, rather than all the name calling and whatnot that stemmed from your original post.
i understand that you didn't come here asking for anyone's opinion, but did you honestly expect people to not reply to your post unless they were a witness or have fallen themselves? if you've done any lurking at bartrage or any other web forum for that matter, you'd know you were going to get opinions from both supporters and dissenters.
Dear Boopiejones, I've
Dear Boopiejones,
I've honestly never lurked at bartrage or been in any web forum before, so it was a shock to find all those comments. I only found bartrage because I did a Google search and saw someone else's posting about their injury at BART. As I explained to Spice, now that I understand, I will do everything I can to try to avoid it. It's not like I've led a sheltered life, but I did grow up in the whole hippie era, which perhaps gives me a different outlook on life.
I'd really be interested to hear your answer (and others') on the question I posed about if it had been someone blind. Thanks.
Free
Free love?
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*sigh* and to think I
*sigh* and to think I defended you Elaine. If all it takes is a simple poll, which by the way isn't derogatory to you in any manner - it's simply taking the pulse of the people using BARTRage, to make you lash out at people then I truly hope you DON'T become any more vicious.
Shrapnel is here so much because she helps RUN THE PLACE, in case you hadn't noticed. As for the whole world out there, who do you think is patrolling the stations and trains and parking lots you use (and slip in)?
(*ahem* assuming of course you DO work Shrapnel and I haven't misunderstood your job) ;)
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Sorry, Spice. I don't like
Sorry, Spice. I don't like to see myself getting this angry either. But, as you previous pointed out, I never asked for anyone's opinion and feel like a lot of people came down pretty hard on me. If you reread Shrapnel's comments to my original posting (which I just did), she was exactly being kind. The straw poll just put me over the edge. I'm not someone who spends a lot of time online and I honestly didn't know I would get any responses other than what I was looking for. I certainly know that now and will do my best to avoid putting myself in a similar situation in the future. For me, it's a ugly side of life that I'd rather pretend doesn't exist.
Here's a question I would like to pose to the Bart Rage community. So, if this had happened to a blind person who only had a cane and not a seeing eye dog (and I've seen several of them at BART), would it still be the blind person'a fault?
P.S. I do work full time.
Thanks for calming down and
Thanks for calming down and the apology. It's a rough lesson to learn but I think you have - putting yourself out there on the Internet (i.e. posting in a forum) throws the doors and windows wide open for all sorts. Consider yourself lucky you learned that lesson here at BARTRage where yes, some people were rude, but wow... you have NO idea what people can be like in other forums and chatrooms. This WAS Pollyanna, comparably speaking.
There's a lot of ruthlessness, raw anger, emotional, and disgusting people in the world... and most of them have Internet access!!!
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i don't think it would be
i don't think it would be any different if the slipper (slippee?) was blind, unless, of course there is some obscure ADA rule i don't know about that requires public agencies to roll dry carpeting out whenever they see a person with a red-tipped cane.
besides, the blind, cane toting population that i have seen on bart do not rush into or out of the trains along with a giant herd of passengers. they walk fairly slowly and typically wait until the herd has exited. they walk slow enough that they could probably walk right through a quart of 10w30 on a marble floor and not eat shit.
from my point of view, the key is whether or not bart knew about and purposely neglected the specific puddle you slipped in. they can't stop every person in the world from spilling liquids on the platform. take away liquids and some douche will invariably spit or pee on the platform causing someone to slip. take away their bladders and someone will empty their colostomy bag (i've seen that happen. not on bart, but on a sidewalk in berkeley). i don't know about you, but i'd rather slip in coffee.
Boopiejones, If BART did
Boopiejones,
If BART did enforce it's No Food or Drink policy (and I checked again this morning and that's exactly what the signs say), don't you agree the chance of injuries would be reduced significantly? I think it would only take one fine for each person to get them to stop (or just seeing someone else get fined). I don't know if you saw my posting about the number of people I counted with coffee (and I didn't count water bottles because people usually carry them with the cap screwed on), but don't you think 43 people in a 48 minute period, at only one of four exits to one station (and it's not even one of most trafficked stations), is an indication that there's a problem? According to an Examiner article on 11/28/07 about the Peet's Coffee kiosks opening at BART, the station I was counting at (Downtown Berkeley) has an average weekday exit count of 11,175 compared to Embarcadero (where my injury occurred), which has an average weekday exit count of 33,453. I would actually rather take my chances with the much reduced chance of encountering spit or pee (of which I've seen neither).
You say, and I quote, "the key is whether or not BART knew about and purposely neglected the specific puddle I slipped in." Please reread my original posting. That's why I was looking for witnesses. There might have been someone who saw and reported the spill earlier and, although it may be a long shot, perhaps BART didn't get around to wiping it up right away. Maybe the maintenance person was busy with something else. There's always a possibility.
Since you also seem to be friendly with Shrapnel, and in case she didn't see my response to her two comments that no BART police report was filed, could you please let her know that a report was taken by a really nice BART police officer named Jeffrey Zwetsloot (#510). He even called me the next day to see how I was doing and, unless he was lying, said that he was going to close out the report. The card he gave me shows his voicemail number as (510) 464-6599 (51075#) and the main telephone number as (877) 679-7000. I'd reply to her myself, but I'm getting tired of defending myself.
Can we just call a truce and go our separate ways?
i am "friendly" with
i am "friendly" with shrapnel because i am also a moderator here at bartrage.
it is illegal to eat or drink on bart. it is NOT ILLEGAL to carry liquids or food on bart. i suppose it is possible that the person who spilled the coffee wasn't even doing anything illegal. they may have just been bringing the coffee with them to drink later. a long shot, i know. but the point is that BPD cannot ticket someone just for transporting coffee (correct me if i am wrong). you counted alot of people holding coffee cups, but how many people did you actually see drinking coffee?
and for the record, i don't believe i ever said you weren't looking for witnesses claiming that bart neglected the spill. i was just reiterating my belief that you don't have a case (or can't sway me as a juror, at least) unless you can prove negligence.
For the record, the signs
For the record, the signs say NO FOOD OR DRINK, not No Eating or Drinking. Do you honestly think the riders carrying PAPER coffee cups are planning to just hold the paper coffee cup during their commute, and wait until they exit the station to drink it? Wouldn't the coffee get a little cold? (You'll probably say they don't like their coffee hot.) If they truly don't intend to drink it on BART, why don't they put their coffee in a thermos and carry it in their bag or briefcase, or some paper or plastic bag? If nothing else, at least disposable paper and styrofoam cups should be banned, because if they're dropped, the entire contents will more than likely spill. At least the hard plastic and stainless steel travel cups have screw on lids that are more likely to stay on if dropped. And, in case you ask, yes, I did keep count of the disposable paper or styrofoam coffee cups versus the reusable hard travel mugs. During the six periods I counted, there were 83 paper or styrofoam versus 51 reusable hard travel mugs.
I can see there's just no point in trying to discuss it with you so, again, why don't we just go our separate ways.
i think they say "no food or
i think they say "no food or drink" because it is hard to make a picture to represent "no eating or drinking." if you are going to post a warning, i'm sure there has to be an associated picture and braille so that our illiterate and blind friends don't get unnecessary citations. "no smoking" is easy - a cigarette with smoke coming out of it and a redline through the whole picture. think about it - how do you draw "no eating or drinking?" a person with a burger in their mouth and a soda in their hand? ok fine. now is the person a guy or a girl? african american, asian, hispanic, caucasian? straight or gay? i smell a lawsuit coming on.
i started writing this paragraph jokingly, but about half way through realized there is probably some truth to it.
anyway, the real point of my reply is that there are alot of signs on bart that make no sense. there are "make your seats available" signs that are purposely written vaguely because they really can't force someone to give up a seat to the elderly. signs on the escalators that say "walk holding the handrail" when certain people swear walking will break the escalators (you know who you are).
i carry some sort of food or drink in my backpack everyday on bart. i even once carried a trader joe bag with a 9x11 tray of enchiladas in it. why have i never been cited?
It is against the law to
It is against the law to CONSUME food or beverage, not possess it. And walking on escalators won't break them... but it might break the old ladies holding on to the handrail for dear life... after you shove her out of the way.
Shrapnel
BARTRage.com Co-Moderator
BARTRage.Moderators@gmail.com
The signs on the platforms
The signs on the platforms say "no eating or drinking" but the signs in the trains say "no food or drink.". So how does that work? I can possess food on the platform but cannot consume it but then when my train shows up I have to somehow get rid of the food without consuming it, presumably by throwing it in a trash can (remember bart has limited trash cans due to that splinter group of terrorists that allegedly targets american trash recepticles). So how do I do this? Say I am holding (but not consuming) my starbucks and my train shows up. My only options are to a) exit the station, chug my coffee and then wait for the next train or b) pour it on the floor and get on the train. Maybe it IS barts fault!!!
This was posted before..
This was posted before.. The Act of ...
640(b)(4) California Penal Code : Smoking, eating, or drinking in or on any system facility or vehicle in those areas where those activities are prohibited by that system.
It's legal to have coffee or even drop some along the way. Well they might go after me for vandalizm for pouring coffee on the floor. But it would not be the "no eating or drinking" ticket.
*cites boopie for not
*cites boopie for not sharing enchiladas!!*
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Who is Elaine and what the
Who is Elaine and what the hell are we talking about
Wow. Elaine- You fell.
Wow.
Elaine-
You fell. Check. It didn't feel nice. Check. You blame everybody but yourself. Check. BART and the world at large owes you a favor for your ouchy. Uhhhh...
No.
The wide array of reactions you have witnessed first hand is an adequate representation of a jury. That said, there would be no decision in your favor. Your case is reminiscent of Swiss cheese (read 'holes'). If I were you, I'd chalk this one up to not minding your surroundings. For being careless. The alleged puddle didn't come to you...you came to it. Try watching where you're walking. For being so keen to detail (who else wastes as much time as you counting coffee cups in the system and endlessly arguing on a forum you swear you spend no time on?), surely you would notice a puddle! Christ...if not, you must never escape a rainy day without a scraped elbow and a skinned knee, eh?
I've dealt with too many people who have gone to great lengths to be compensated for their lapse in judgement. For their mistake. BART closed the case, why don't you?
B
blah, blah, blah, blah,
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah...
i bet you're one of those people who wasn't very popular in school and now it makes you feel really important to hide behind your computer and pass judgment on everyone else. and it looks like you've got a whole bunch of loser companions to keep you company. i've never seen so much verbal diarrhea in one place. what idiot started this poll anyway? didn't your mom ever tell you "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say anything at all?"
get a life!!!
and you're not hiding behind
and you're not hiding behind YOUR computer??? we all kinda are. i'm a moderator here, but were not the morality police. it's ok to be mean, just keep it on topic. your post above? not on topic. nice first try. practice makes perfect.
Uh, I think the pot just
Uh, I think the pot just called the kettle black. Thank you, pot. So noted.
- The Kettle
Well, now thats funny! "sick
Well, now thats funny! "sick of assholes" registered through the same IP as Elaine registered through! Yeah, Elaine, change up your typing format a little and register using a different e-mail address. Just give it a rest. You posted something in a very opinionated forum, you got an opinion, which you didn't agree with, and now you've stooped to the low-level name calling and viciousness that you and your few supporters have scorned to no end.
Oh, and the idiot who started this poll (myself) didn't even vote in it. I asked a question. I didn't "say" anything.
Shrapnel
BARTRage.com Co-Moderator
BARTRage.Moderators@gmail.com
i originally referred to
i originally referred to "sick of assholes" as "elaine" but then i changed it because it was just a hunch and i didn't want to be mean if i was wrong. damn!
Did I hear someone say
Did I hear someone say POT?!?!
It appears that Elaine, or whoever, is experiencing so much pain that she has obtained a medical marijuana card.
She's got a whole kettle of it too.
Elain's accident is a no-brainer.
She should pursue legal action against BART.
I am positive that a jury of her peers will find her to be...
Clumsy
i got 5 on it
jbap21
...well said, especially 'i
...well said, especially 'i got 5 on it.'
I think we can finally put this topic to bed. Elaine/asshole/whatever-name-she/he/it-creates-next could very well disappear indefinitely after Shrapnel outed him/her/it like that. Well done, Shrapnel! Clearly a 'straw poll' is a good way to do some house cleaning...or at least provide entertainment.
B
The signs say you are
The signs say you are SUBJECT TO CITATION not that you will BE fined...insert dead horse here. You think you have a case, run it by a Lawyer (free consult) and see what they say. Your lawyer can suopena the records if they want to. treat the whole matter as an educational experience and see how it turns out. The worst that can happen is you forget to send us a postcard from hawaii and I'll pout for about a week.
-T/O
Someone needs to be banned
Someone needs to be banned for Christmas.