Screwed for parking
I see no one's posted in here for a while, but I gotta tell you, this is one of my biggest rants.
I'm sorry, but I'm not one of the multitude who hold "financial district" jobs that need to be at the office by o' dark early. I'm a regular 9-5'er who usually gets to BART (Lafayette or Walnut Creek) by 8:15. I can't possibly get there any earlier as I have to drop kids off at school.
I realize there's no land to extend the parking facilities, but for the love of God BART, do NOT complain about ridership being down then turn around and implement parking fees and hike fares to compensate, when you're turning people away!
If the lot is full, which it is on average 4.75 days out of 5, I end up circling the lots in search of the elusive "missed" spot. When I arrive at 8:15 or 8:20 (if I'm running REALLY late) I usually play this game with anywhere from 3 to as many as 10 (yes, that's right TEN!) other cars attempting to find a spot. And that's just at that time. Who knows how many people have come and gone already or how many will come after me, after I give up.
Oh I know, I can wait until the "late" lot opens... at 10am!!! Yes, I'll just be 2 hours late to work so I can park in an area BART has set aside for people who don't rush into the city every morning for work. Or wait, better yet I can get on a waiting list (who knows how long THAT would take) to get a parking permit so I can have the honor of paying 2x - 3x (yes, THREE TIMES) the normal parking fee per month, all for the luxury of guaranteeing me a spot (as long as I show up by a certain time, otherwise they give my spot away)
Yes, let's all spare the air! C'mon BART - advertise some more, beg for more riders, complain ridership is down, raise fares, charge for parking... but by all means, PLEASE don't have the capacity to handle the riders you already have. That's just silly. Why take care of the ones you already have?
This rant could easily segue into related rants... spare the air days that basically screw their normal riders by opening the doors to a flood of freeloaders, less trains that are smaller in length less frequently, paying employees, increasing security, increasing parking facilities, cleaning and/or fixing trains and stations, fixing the existing signage, fixing the displays to correctly reflect train arrival times and lengths, incoherent announcements from train operators and station agents, train noise that could potentially damage hearing, turnstiles that malfunction... the list goes on and on. None of which even touches on the riders themselves! :)
Trust me, I loathe BART but they have me by the short hairs. Despite fare hikes, and even if I payed a LOT more for parking it's still cheaper than driving my car - bridge toll, parking in the city, gas, wear-and-tear on the car, plus the intangibles - wear-and-tear on my sanity, loss of sleep/reading/movie watching/doing work time.
BART, if you're paying attention: WAKE UP already and start fixing what's wrong!
welcome to bartrage! do you
welcome to bartrage! do you EVER find parking at walnut creek at 8:15??? if i am running late (and by "late" i mean i'd get to walnut creek after 7:30) i don't even bother trying WC and i go straight to lafayette.
on the flip side, i have arrived at lafayette as late as 8:20 and there was still a fair amount of parking available.
Heh heh... you got me there.
Heh heh... you got me there. It's been years since I've attempted Walnut Creek. I'm a creature of habit and go to Lafayette, but there was a while there that I was going in earlier and able to find parking at Walnut Creek.
However, I was always on the cusp and too often found myself racing from WC to Lafayette because WC was full. I too gave up on WC and just started going straight to Lafayette.
Now that summer's over Lafayette has gotten out of hand. I can arrive and get parking as late as 8:20 but on that day I consider myself extremely lucky and buy a lottery ticket - I figure I HAVE to win... However, it's apparent I've used all my luck by finding that spot because to date I still haven't won. :)
During the summer you can get parking at Lafayette as late as 8:45 (or later if you're lucky). I used to arrive around 8:30 and the last lot would only be 1/2 full. If I arrived at 8:15 I'd even attempt the 2nd lot!! Now if you arrive at 8:20 I've found your chances of finding a spot to be miniscule. Of course around the holidays, with people taking time off, your odds increase.
I have to rant back here
I have to rant back here because I have gone through this with someone recently.. You can Rant, and yes I have been frustrated many times..
I am following the order of the rant above.
I agree, Rockridge to Pleasant Hill usually has NO parking between 8-10AM.. With most stations filling the 10AM spots by 10:30. Lafayett sometimes, Concord has spare parking behind Concord Police station. And North Concord has spots usually.
It seems like you feel BART should have MORE parking?? As if they don't have more than any pubic transit in the while nation.. BART's parking lots are already massive lots that take over a huge amount of land (I know many WestBay Stations do not have parking at most stations at all). Anyway, East Bay folks are attached to their cars like an IV to a drug addict.. Many folks have busses that are within a few blocks walk (yea I know i'm lazy too.)
You said: 2x - 3x "(yes, THREE TIMES) the normal parking fee per month".. I have no idea where you have been parking.. Most of the stations parking permits, if you can find one, are like $85.00.. Most parking lots I have been to charge A LOT MORE than $4.25 a day!.. (unless you mean 2-3x more than free, or the token $1.00 BART charges, mainly to run out casual carpoolers.) But thats a rediculous comparison.
I DO agree with you they need to raise the parking fees.. $1.00 is no where near market rate. And I would rather pay $5.00 or more and get a parking spot than spend 30 minutes chasing people out of the station to get their spot. They should see what the market will bear.. Raise it, see if any spots free up, raise it again.. You'll start to knock out some of the whiners (maybe they'll take a bus).
Ok your next paragraph is just you saying things that are not true.. I have rode on most spare the air days.. Yes it sucks due to the more people, but the trains are not smaller, and at concord I noticed an extra train was put in last time that was not on the schedule. I don't know about the other subjects you touched on in that paragraph, but it's hard to believe someone, when there are already untruths to what was said.
Last paragraph.. "it's still cheaper than driving my car" DING DING DING DING.. Exactly! BART has lots of problems I see, but it's still pretty darn cheap.. They could raise the fares and make it more like CALTrain. But I would rather a cheap ride to the city.. Even if I do need to be dropped off at the BART station.
SPICE , if you're paying attention: WAKE UP already and start realizing that you need to complain to BART about things that are TRUE and most important. FIXING costs money, so pick the things they should fix wisely, not the issues that may be specific to just you.
Concord and North may have
Concord and North may have spots, as does supposedly Orinda according to a friend but as dropping my kids off at school already delays me, I have no time to shuttle from station to station in hopes of lucking into a spot. I have 2 nearby that I race between, would you have me start in N. Concord each morning and run down the line looking for parking?
Yes, I DO want BART to have more parking. It may have a lot already but that's not the point, now is it. The point was, and still is, that they cannot handle the current load. With the communities surrounding the stations posting "No parking" signs to explicitly stop BART overflow parking from choking the neighborhoods and businesses, I refer you back to point #1 above. Walnut Creek has a parking garage, so it's footprint is arguably smaller than that of Lafayette's triple parking lot setup. I'm no expert and haven't even bothered to count the number of spots, but if you're complaining about parking lots taking over massive amounts of land, then perhaps a garage is a potential solution. Again I refer you to the fact that I must take my children to school. At which point I find myself quite a distance from home. I can either drive back home and then walk to a bus-stop or take a bus from where I wind up and then have to bus it BACK to that place in the evening. Yes, yes, whine whine. I do the green thing more than you might imagine, but I simply cannot add an extra 20-30 minutes, each way, to my commute because BART doesn't have enough parking.
As for your comment about parking costs, yes I'm comparing it to the $1 token fee, and it is by NO means a ridiculous comparison. On average there are approx 20 days to work in a month, that's $20 for someone who can make it to Lafayette BART by 8:15. Your argument is that I should be fine with paying $85 - almost 4x the nominal fee my fellow riders pay - because I get to BART 5 or 10 mins later? Sorry, I don't exactly have money to burn. Whenever businesses raise prices to see what the market will bear you'll have whiners like me crawling out of the woodwork. I have a budget I need to adhere to, and just because you think it's fine to raise prices and don't mind paying $5 or more doesn't mean you speak for everyone, just like my rant about having to pay more than $1 doesn't speak for everyone.
Sorry you haven't noticed the same things I have on Spare the Air days, but that doesn't make what I said untrue, so you'd better be more careful the next time you start casting dispersions. It's been my experience over the last 7 years that on any given (free) Spare the Air Day parking disappears at LEAST 20-30 mins earlier than normal, platforms are PACKED and when the trains arrived they TOO were packed. I said nothing of the trains being smaller on those days - that was your own misread. And again, just because you didn't see the same things I did, doesn't mean there are "untruths to what was said". If that were the case you'd have to say that about each and every rant posted on this board as you didn't see/experience the same event.
Last paragraph: ding ding yourself. Just because something's cheaper than one of its alternatives (driving in), doesn't mean there's nothing wrong with it. This whole site is dedicated to discussing what we feel in wrong - and in certain instances right - with BART.
Masters, if YOU'RE paying attention, this is a rant board/forum. If BART reads this then all the better. What I ranted about were TRUE scenarios as experienced BY ME on if not a daily basis, then pretty darned close. None of the issues were specific to me, if you actually stopped to think about them. I mentioned as many as 10 other cars circling the lot looking for parking plus the open-ended suggestion there are probably more both before and after I'm there. Thus having trouble finding a parking spot is NOT specific to me, now is it? Perhaps you should also take a poll of the regulars you see almost every, if not every, day to see how they feel about Spare the Air days because it's been my experience through casual conversation with people I've been seeing almost daily for 7 years now that they're not exactly thrilled with the overcrowded conditions imposed by the people who only bother to ride when it's free. Again, NOT specific to me, is it?
I'm glad things are working well for you but that doesn't give you the right to say someone else isn't telling the truth because they've had different experiences.
Parking Garage = $$ and most
Parking Garage = $$ and most cities like Orinda will not allow more parking to be built, they do not want more non-resident traffic in their city. I always thought Orinda could put an off ramp westbound and a onramp eastbound and dig down and build a short parking structure.
I use the parking lot, so I would shoot myself in the foot here.. But BART should have been average.. They should not have put in so much parking in the beginning, there is reasons other transit agencies don't pay to build parking.
"SAID: Your argument is that I should be fine with paying $85 - almost 4x the nominal fee my fellow riders pay - because I get to BART 5 or 10 mins later?"
My argument is you should be fine with paying $85 for a guaranteed parking space, whenever you come in before 10AM..
How much would you say would be a fair amount to pay for guaranteed parking or a parking garage??
I wish I could get the $5.00 Daily parking AT THE STATION not have to go ONLINE. But thats a gripe I have.
I am having trouble finding prices for parking lots, but I did find this online..
http://articles.moneycentral.msn.com/News/ThePriciestPlacestoPark.aspx
Average $15.28 Daily.. $153.19 Monthly
And we are in one of the most expensive markets in the nation.
Maybe you would feel better if they make the Daily Fee $5 and the montly $5.05.
As for Spare the Air days.. I avoid them now.. I end up standing the entire way. Ironic since spare the air days is supposed to get you out of your car, and it puts me IN the car..
I didn't say there was nothing wrong with BART, that's untrue by far.. BUT we need to fix the broken stuff, not add costs to BART, like adding parking spots for those that drive.. They DO need to invest in some more train cars..
Yup this is a rant forum, thats why we love it.. And I hope you don't think BART reads a blog site over their comment cards.
And I belive you have problems on a daily basis.. If you come into any of the stations mentioned after 8am, you are definately going to be hunting for spots. And same for the other cars, either they don't know BART well, or their "hunting" pays off eventually, otherwise you would not have company out there..
As for things working well, they don't. I have been in the parking lot frustrated, cursing and more.. But I don't see more parking as the answer.
And I apologize for saying you had said something was untrue, I thought you had said "spare the air days that basically screw their normal riders by opening the doors to a flood of freeloaders, less trains that are smaller in length less frequently".. When I know for a fact that they INCREASE train size and make them more frequent on days that the doors open to a flood of freeloaders. But then again maybe I misread what I copied and pasted. My Fault..
I honestly don't know what
I honestly don't know what to say regarding parking costs. The prices you quote are indeed overly pricey. Those are more in line with city parking. There's a garage near WC station that charges $9 a day. It's my fallback in the event that all the $5 parking at Laf. is taken.
$8 r/t + $1 parking x 20 days/month = $180/month
$8 r/t + $5 parking x 20 days/month = $260/month
$8.5 r/t + $9 parking x 20 days/month = $350/month
If I had to consistently pay $9/day... heck, even $5/day for parking I'd have to reconsider taking BART, which means since driving in is more expensive, looking for a new job in the east bay, which means I'd drive MORE than I do now, which is what I THOUGHT we were all trying to avoid. This happens every winter when people start going into work "normal" time again after a summer of summer hours, summer fridays, vacations, etc. But after dealing with seasonal parking issues for the past 7 years, I'm finally at a breaking point.
My base argument is this: at a time when we're finally recognizing the problems our world is facing and there's a push to go green, BART is passively discouraging riders through lack of parking facilities, shorter trains and longer times between them, dirty facilities, etc.
If you don't see MORE parking as the answer, what DO you see? There will always be a small percentage of us that aren't able, for one reason or another, to walk, ride a bike, carpool, or take a bus to a BART station. We might be a tiny minority, but I thought every little bit was supposed to help...?
On a side note, my original gripe about Spare the Air Days screwing their normal, loyal ridership was meant to include the reason that since parking is non-existent by the time people like myself get there, we have to pay at least $5 (if THAT'S even still available, which it often is not) thereby negating the free morning commute. So the freeloaders get a free (morning) ride, the long-term riders who can't get parking don't get anything. Great way to reward your loyal riders.
I agree with your statement
I agree with your statement that not everyone can find a carless alternative to get to bart. I am moving soon and was very put out to discover that there is no bus that runs early enough for me to catch my god awful early train in the morning, and there's no way I'm riding my bike that far with stuff in the dark. I'd rather live thank you.
I agree with your statement
I agree with your statement that not everyone can find a carless alternative to get to bart. I am moving soon and was very put out to discover that there is no bus that runs early enough for me to catch my god awful early train in the morning, and there's no way I'm riding my bike that far with stuff in the dark. I'd rather live thank you.
BART needs to sell their
BART needs to sell their lots and expand public transit.
Sounds like a situation where TransLink would particularly helpful.
Oh.. TransLink... Nevermind.
If you don't see MORE
If you don't see MORE parking as the answer, what DO you see? There will always be a small percentage of us that aren't able, for one reason or another, to walk, ride a bike, carpool, or take a bus to a BART station. We might be a tiny minority, but I thought every little bit was supposed to help...?
I am sorry to break the sordid news to you but this is not a problem that can be solved and let everyone do everything the "easy way". There are too many people, too much pollution, too little oil, too much strife, for the party to keep going as is. People are going to have to either deal with these problems getting worse, or they will have to solve them by radically changing their lives.
Move closer to work. Move closer to BART. Move closer to your kids school and walk with them to school and teach them to ride a bike when they are old enough (which will help save them diabetes and obesity too). Move near a transit line or close enough to bike. Switch jobs.
None of these alternatives may be attractive to you (how walking your kids to school could be unattractive I'll never know). I hear over and over how all of these things are "impossible - I have to drive/can't move/blah". I ride my bike to Caltrain through San Francisco every day, something that everyone who doesn't do thinks is crazy and unsafe, something for crazy middle aged granola guys like me. Yet I see well dressed women, fat men, old women, doing this every day! And almost nobody dies, yet there are fatalities on 24/580/680/880 every day.
I compare it to the people who got the ARMs with a low teaser rate. Sooner or later baby, that mortgage is going to adjust. We can't widen 24, so there is traffic. Traffic sucks, take BART. Too much BART taking, not enough parking, can't build more parking. Boom - foreclosure on anyone who bet their future on infrastructure that can't be expanded.
I think that's another reason there is BARTRage and not CaltrainRage (by the way Caltrain is MUCH cheaper than BART). Because there is far LESS parking at Caltrain stations and MORE dedicated transit. When I don't use my bike there is MUNI (not great but workable) and my employer shuttle (door to train service). It also services more dense areas so people actually live near a train station, not 5 miles away in Alamo or Antioch where they are tied to their car for the barest of needs.
I'm not criticizing you. I *was* you for a long time. There is probably not going to be more of the "obvious solution" which is magical parking garages. Start to look for workable solutions or you will be stuck in BARTRage land forever.
Good luck.
Amen, my brother (sister?)!
Amen, my brother (sister?)!
I agree with you fully. To
I agree with you fully. To effect these changes is not going to be easy... well, maybe for the granola crowd it'll be easier. :) Jumping through hoops, yes. Jumping through hoops of fire? I don't think so.
That said, I AM trying to do my part and finding the cards stacked against doing the right thing. Obviously this is nothing new, but if the people of this world are going to make an effort, then so do businesses. This too has largely been a major complaint, expressed time and time again by frustrated citizens. Big business does not make it easy to go green. It IS getting better, but let me address your comments:
I cannot move as upheaving my life and family is a ridiculous solution. What if I got fired/laid-off/found a better job? Do I move again? How about the fact that my wife works in one direction and I in the other? Maybe we should both leave the companies we've been loyal to for the sake of finding employment close enough to each other enabling us to pick up stakes and move? And if one of us gets fired/laid off - rinse and repeat?
In all honesty I don't live THAT far from BART but based on my previously stated arguments about timing, riding my bike or driving back home to then walk to a bus would make me even later than I already am. I'm already doing SOMETHING green, for what its worth (taking public transit for the last 7 years vs. driving into the city) and look how frustrated I am at how difficult the vehicle to my greenness is being. Instead of getting EASIER it's gotten worse.
Walking the kids to school will be a treat once that situation stabilizes (different schools, timing, etc) and neither are old enough to ride bikes to school though we DO live close enough to the school that they WILL, as a lot of other kids do, once they're old enough.
That leaves the one alternative - switch jobs. And believe you me, it's an option already being explored. However, a) it lets BART off the hook to make changes to meet the general populace 1/2 way on going green if everyone ELSE makes changes to suit BART and b) it could very well mean that I simply end up with a job that doesn't require me to take BART but means driving my car MORE than the tiny distance I drive now to the BART station. Kinda going the opposite direction of being green...
However, should BART improve its facilities in such a way that it allows people like myself the ability to continue using public transit without intense frustration, I can concentrate on making more changes that would allow me to ride my bike or take a bus. All I'm asking is to meet me 1/2 way in my attempts to continue, and improve upon, being green. If I get too frustrated I'm going to stop making the effort and then who wins?
I never used the word green
I never used the word green - certainly it's applicable but even if carbon pollution was not an issue, at some point there is only so much space to put roads and parking garages. The problem was that we built houses not near BART or not dense enough to make it easy to work connecting transit that everyone would use. Livability is more than just the temperature of the planet.
If BART builds more parking, it is letting everyone else off the hook, and alternative methods never get any better, and finally we'll build ourselves into a hole we can't get out of. If we build more parking, more people will drive, so we'll build another road. With the pressure relieved, we build more low density housing up Bollinger Canyon Road. Finally we run out of room for more roads and more parking and we're screwed because so many people live spread out where transit won't work.
I understand all the issues you address. It's part and parcel of modern life, and when you understand that, instead of fighting it, you may find nirvana. Everyone would love for it to be easy. But it's not. The people that make the tough choices are living better. The best thing I ever did for myself in my life was when I sold my car. Of course, that required planning such that I wouldn't need it, and I really do not miss the things that required it, and when I really want to do something that does require a car, I have a lot of extra dollars to rent one. It might not work for you - but that is only a result of choices, not because that is the way that life has to be. Crazy Granola Guy? Yes. But the living's easy. Until I lose the SF public school lottery I guess :(
I know you never used the
I know you never used the word green, but that IS what we're talking about here. One of the many positives of taking public transit is the relief of congestion on the roads.
I can see both sides to the argument that if BART built more parking... however I think your supposition that it lets everyone else off the hook is, well... off the hook. If someone's driving TO that BART parking, they're not driving elsewhere, presumably not on a longer drive - whether that be distance or time.
BART IS the alternative method, and it is already better than driving your car longer/farther. What you're talking about is urban sprawl. Yes, it may occur should BART expand its parking facilities, but the two should be approached as mutually exclusive. Just because BART expands parking does NOT mean developers should be given the green light to squeeze more housing into the area.
"They could raise the fares
"They could raise the fares and make it more like CALTrain"
Caltrain is much cheaper than BART. My Monthly pass is $150. That takes me from San Francisco to Mountain View.
Just Lafayette to Montgomery is $8.40 round trip, if you take BART every day you've paid much more. And that is
a much shorter trip than SF->Mountain View.
A better comparison might be Millbrae to SF. Millbrae to SF on BART is $4. It is also $4 on Caltrain. But on Caltrain
you can get a 10 ride ticket and it's $3.40. And if you get a pass and go to work say, 20 days a month (I go more)
then it ends up being like $2.50 a ride.
Anyway, the easy way around the parking problem - ride a bike to BART.
Is everyone aware of how
Is everyone aware of how much BART is making off of parking fees and tickets? Its around $6,000,000 a year. They keep adding more and more 4-10am "permit" lots, and taking away more general parking. In their eyes (james evans?) they will make more and more money by doing that. With no regard to its riders, just their bottom line (more excessive bonuses). Also, were you aware that BARTs "customer access department/paring guru's" will over sell the reserved permit space you paid for? i.e. there are 200 permit stalls at lafayette, and all 200 are sold, but the surveyors notice that on an average day only 180 stalls are full, they will sell 20-40 more. Basically selling about 240 of 200 stalls. What happens if all 200 original permit holders show up that day, on top of the 40 others they sold? Oh well... sucks for somebody. The whole parking thing is a joke. It is set up and run very poorly. Whats with the "permit etc etc etc" and "fee between 10-3pm etc etc" signs? Anyone notice that they switched to a few ambiguous and un light signs at the entrances to the lots? they used to have tons of little yellow signs in front of your parking space so you actually knew you couldnt park there. How are you supposed to know now if its dark/raining when you arrive? guess you will know when you get a ticket. Moral of this rant is, GO TO THE BOARD MEETINGS!!!!!!!!! they are held at BARTs HQ in oakland, find out when they are, go, and express your complaints, praises and concerns. I plan on going one of these days but it doesnt work with my school/childcare situation. They WILL listen if you have validity to your arguement. These people are elected, so its not in their best interest to blow you off.
I'm not being mean or
I'm not being mean or anything... but is wrong with BART coming up with creative revenue streams ? BART parking should never had been free. Also, from a business standpoint, it is smart to oversell the permits. Invaribly there will ALWAYS be a few no shows. If there is ever a shortage, a practical and generous compensation should be made to those who were left out. I think the little yellow signs are gone because entire sections of lots are cordoned off for permit parking. To be honest, the permits are outside of my price range, but I also understand that it is a premium and if one can afford to take advantage of the premium then more power to them. I'll go down the highway to the next parking lot.
Sorry, overselling might
Sorry, overselling might make good business sense, but I personally take offense to the practice. Let's call it what it is: "Greed". You already sold that spot. It doesn't matter if that person doesn't use it very often. I don't know when this practice started but it disgusts me when I sit at the airport and listen as they try to wiggle out of an overbooked flight, and it disgusts me that BART oversells parking spots.
Creative revenue streams, yes. All for it. Double selling? Cheap and greedy.
To be honest, the permits are outside of MY price range as well, and yes, more power to the folks who can afford to give BART 3x the current parking fee. I too will go down the highway to the next parking lot... and find IT full too.
It's full because the
It's full because the parking fees are so cheap, that everyone wants to park there.. Should be priced at a 98% full at 9:30am market rate.
Over selling.. Well at least BART isn't as bad as the airlines (yet) ..
It's been awhile since Spice
It's been awhile since Spice posted on here, so I'm wondering if Spice finally found another solution, or just gave up posting. Hopefully the former.
First: I encourage everyone on this thread to pause for a moment right here and calculate their car-commute costs at $0.65 per mile. That includes tolls, parking, purchase price of vehicle, insurance, maintenance, gas, registration, and repair.
Figure out your miles, then multiply by 65 cents. (The IRS reimbursement rate.) That's the real cost of driving. You may be in for a shock.
10 miles to a destination is $6.50. 10 miles home again is another $6.50.
Crazy, isn't it? But that is the actual cost.
Gas cost is something like 10 - 20 cents per mile. So a 10 mile trip only uses $1-2 of gas there, and $1-2 back, depending on your gas mileage and current gas prices. The cost of gas deceives us into thinking we're spending a lot less using our cars than we really are.
And by the way, though gas is back down around $2.45 right now, it's expected to go back up as high as $5 by Summer, 2009 and stay there.
People tend to only think of the gas costs, but that it is not factoring in the biggest cost of driving: the cost per mile of wearing out the car, therefore hastening the days (or miles) til having to buy a new car.
Just calculating actually driving costs helps to clarify one's commute situation and helps with making plans and changing lifestyle if the costs warrant it.
**
For those having trouble parking at BART stations, putting in more parking is not going to solve the problem. At best, it's a short-term band-aid. In fact, it will just make the parking and access to BART worse.
The more parking put in, the more outlying sprawl housing development that parking will generate. It will just facilitate more people driving to the station, and accepting jobs that depend on park-and-ride use of BART.
Every parking space is a sprawl generator, but parking at a train station is a sprawl generator on steroids, because it attracts people to move out to the 'burbs, then park-and-ride the train to higher paying jobs in the urban core.
Housing development generated by train parking is inherently low density, not high density. The whole opportunity, the lure, of having train parking is to allow people to live as far as they wish from the train station, in low density housing with a yard. That housing typically requires at least 6 parking spaces at each residence: 2 in the garage, 2 in the driveway, and 2 on the street. Multiplied by many residences, the housing sprawls outward at a faster rate than housing with less parking, because of all the land devoted to all of the parking at each residence.
Furthermore, each of those cars parked at the residence require a parking space at every one of its destinations, meaning the whole city has to sprawl outward faster, to accommodate all of those parking spaces at the destinations.
This is why building more parking, ESPECIALLY at a train station, is counterproductive to transit use: either use of the train, or buses to and from the train.
Buses (and trains) require lots of people living within a short walk of each bus or train stop, to make frequent transit financially feasible and politically justifiable. Therefore, low-density sprawl housing, generated by train parking, does not support buses to BART.
In fact, low-density housing *undermines* bus service, by costing the bus agency a fortune. It drains bus monies by requiring a basic, minimum level of bus service to low-density housing from which its car-dependent suburban residents will not find it convenient enough and will seldom use it: bus monies that would be better spent on more bus service in high-density areas.
Generating more such car-dependent sprawl housing (sprawl=low density) just undermines bus service more, by draining bus money to serve it.
**
The value of putting in (and living in) station-area housing is that it generates more bus use--and therefore, more bus service--to and from the stations. People who live at the stations use buses to do errands, go to jobs, classes, take the kids to childcare, etc. Perhaps one person in the household uses BART to work, the other might be able to use the bus to a local job, or for some other trips occasionally. Or use BART to work in the other direction. Teenagers in transit-centered housing certainly help support the bus system by using it.
**
The value of moving to transit-centered housing is that it provides all sorts of options, and a much easier, time-saving lifestyle. Then both people in a couple have the option of taking BART in either direction, if need be, and all kinds of job options accessible via transit open up.
**
I live in transit-centered housing in the North Bay, which has no train and the suburban transit is appalling. Buses every 30 minutes to 2 hours! A round trip by transit from the transit hub I live at, to San Francisco, takes 10 hours round trip.
10 hours' travel time.
Not including doing anything in the city.
To visit my father on the Peninsula, it's 8+ hours each way, requiring an overnight stay for a trip that, by car, takes 3 hours when traffic is heavy, 2 in light traffic.
So I only go to San Fran once a year, and down the Peninsula every other year or so.
**
Living at a transit hub, under such poor transit conditions, is the only way any transit use at all in the North Bay would work for me.
**
By living at a hub, I can get most of my errands done on foot: a huge time and money-saver. (The hub is at a large regional shopping mall with supermarket, Post Office, library, several banks, department stores, Office Depot-type store, etc.)
Living at a BART station would be far more convenient, because there'd be the convenience of BART, and probably more bus service, and more businesses within walking distance.
**
This is not to minimize the significance of moving to a station area. Of course, it would be a big lifestyle change, kids changing schools, perhaps less open space, maybe no yard. One thing Transit-Centered Developments need is a small amount of yard space per housing unit, for it to be more worthwhile for suburbanites to consider living there.
**
This is the trend we need to go in. We have to go in. Everyone says, "we can't build our way out of traffic and parking congestion," but then makes demands as if we can expect to keep doing so. I don't mean to sound cold hearted, it's just that the way we have developed cities and transportation, based on the car, is no longer working, either in terms of land for all the parking, time spent stuck in traffic, parking gridlock, energy dependence, or climate change.
**
To anyone who makes the change to move to transit-centered housing, I guarantee, it is so much more convenient, you'll never regret it, and wonder how you ever lived any other way.
To get out into the country and enjoy some open space, it's always possible to get away on the weekends.
**
Now please, calculate your driving miles and multiply by 65 cents.
Best wishes,
buses4peace
first off, let me say welcome
first off, let me say welcome to bartrage! i totally agree with you analogy of the $0.65/mile. before accounting for parking, my commute is already at $50 round trip. i have been trying to hammer that home for quite some time to the people that think bart is expensive.
but i must say that you lost me at the more parking leads to more sprawl thingy. especially the part about how the garages and driveways and curb spaces further extend the sprawl. i have a three car garage, can fit 6 cars in my driveway and another 10 or 12 on the curb (corner lot). somehow this makes me responsible for overcrowding on bart and people deciding to move to mountain house?
i think the situation is the exact opposite. people sprawl out because they WANT to sprawl out. sure, it would be nice to be able to walk or bike to work, but not everyone wants to live in a high density neighborhood. i like having a backyard with a sandbox and swings for my kids, grass where we can play catch or soccer, a nice bbq and trees where i can set up a hammock. having a HOA pool within a 1/2 block. a third garage so i can easily work on my kids bikes. no crack addicts whistling on the street corner all hours of the night. no sirens rushing by at 3am...
Several things.. Board
Several things..
Board Meetings, I totally agree.. People should put their input in.. I'm always pushing comment cards, but thats because I believe the more they get, the more they try to fix, within reason.
BART should focus on expanding and/or providing better service.. BART should never have gotten into the Parking business.. The lots cost more to maintain than BART receives in parking fees.. Sell them to a private company, since they could probably run it better AND it would not be a drain on BART.
Of course I figure people that use the lots would prefer if everyone else helped pay for them..
If they don't sell the parking lot, I would prefer the parking fee be adjusted so that people that park, pay for the maintenance.. Currently the maintenance of the lots is spread over all customers, even customers that have no stations that have parking lots..
The question becomes, is it right for part of your BART fare to go towards maintaining parking lots in the East Bay that you may never use. Or is it better if the people that use the parking lot, pay to park there, and the money goes for maintaining and policing the lot, but not for profit?
AND...
There is nothing wrong with BART getting money in creative ways.. They get rent, advertising dollars (and looking for more), federal, state, local, parking fees, unused money on tickets that are discarded, interest on stored money, real estate, radio/cell towers on various buildings. I'm sure someone familiar with BART could fill a book on various ways BART gets money.. But thats OK, if they didn't it would cost more money to ride ( which I hear BART is one of the best at farebox recovery ).
I agree that parking lots
I agree that parking lots should be a self-funding project, optionally subsidized with local grants from the city or local businesses
Offsetting the costs onto tickets and diverting funding from other grants invites pork barrel projects and takes away from other needed services and improvements.
CSOs are expensive.
CSOs are expensive.
Perspective.. If BART makes
Perspective..
If BART makes 6Million on Parking fees.. What is the cost to the district to maintain those parking lots per year?
If they make 6 million and it cost 20 million, then thats a drop in a bucket.. It they make 6 and it costs 6 to maintain.. Then thats a best case scenario.
I am glad though that there are less " NO PARKING BEFORE 10AM" slots.. They have taken out those spots at some stations and made them available for Permit before 10am.
Im sorry, when i said that
Im sorry, when i said that theyre adding more permit/no parking before 10 am stalls, i meant reserved/permit. BART is eliminating the 4-10 midday parking spaces, and the attended vehicles 4-6pm spaces in order to sell more permit spots. Additionally, they only choose to add a minimum ammount of handicapped spots because that allows them to charge more for permits.
I'm glad they are making
I'm glad they are making those spots available.. Nothing is more frustrating than circling a parking lot that has a whole section completly empty. I have run back home real quick and bought a daily permit a couple of times.. If I need to park between 8:30-10am, I always run a permit down.. Because any fee/free parking is going to be a hike AND I may not be able to find a spot.
Oaky, I do not want to make
Oaky, I do not want to make this situation any gloomier for anyone, but just to let you know, BART parking is going to get worse. As many of you have mentioned about BART getting creative with ways to earn money how about this one. BART is selling off a lot of their parking lots to make way for transit villages. Many of you see the new parking structure being built in Dublin, yeah, cause they sold all the level parking to transit village developers so you are only gaining about 100 stalls. Not much. And Macaurther is next, they are shutting down half of the lot and are not suppose to replace any of the lost parking. Walnut Creek is next. So not to rain on your day, but it is getting worse, BART's theory is ridiculous, they do not seem to care about their patrons finding parking, just their money.
And Sharpnel, for you information, CSO's may be expensive, but they are the only self generating employees at BART. You figure each one averages 30-40 tickets a day (some write 60- 100) @ $25.00 dollars minimum each they make BART roughly $800.00 to $1000.00 dollars a day and that does not include the validation money that people willing pay to avoid getting ticketed. So they pretty much pay their own salary. When was the last time a BART cop generated their own daily salary and then some? If you ask me, they are needed more than a BART cop is. So before you throw out your obviuosly uneducated statement, do the research. CSO's are worth their weight in gold. I thank them for keeping my reserved spaces open.
Maybe, just Maybe, they will
Maybe, just Maybe, they will focus on transportation, not supporting parking lots...
I don't know how much BART gets from the parking fines, but I don't believe it's anywhere near as much as you are quoting.. Maybe you know more than I do.. But the parking Permits/Citations Etc are handled by an outside company in Huntington Beach California.
BART probably gets more money from folks riding round trip, since the casual carpoolers are pushed out of taking the parking spots by the token $1 fee..
Look at the parking ticket next time, it's not BART you have to deal with.
----------------- QUOTE -----------
"So not to rain on your day, but it is getting worse, BART's theory is ridiculous, they do not seem to care about their patrons finding parking, just their money.
AND
CSO's may be expensive, but they are the only self generating employees at BART. You figure each one averages 30-40 tickets a day (some write 60- 100) @ $25.00 dollars minimum each they make BART roughly $800.00 to $1000.00 dollars a day and that does not include the validation money that people willing pay to avoid getting ticketed. "
-----------------
If you think that each CSO's
If you think that each CSO's write 30-40 tickets a day, you are out of your mind. A friend of mine works for BART and told me that some of them may do that, but many of them only write 6-8 tickets a day. They work a 8 hour shift 5 days a week but many of them only write tickets from 8-10am and then retire for the rest of the day.(BART should make this a part time position).
By the way, BART Officers also write parking tickets, some of them write more than the CSO's on their beat. Also if you do a salary comparison, for the cost of 3 CSO's BART could hire 2 Police Officers. When you consider that fact, the CSO's are not so cost effictive. Officers can write parking tickets and do everything else. CSO's can only write parking tickets.
Some CSOs work in areas that
Some CSOs work in areas that don't have a lot of parking tickets to be written, and some CSOs don't have to write any because there are no parking lots on their beat (Powell, Embarcadero, etc.) It depends on the area they work. Some lots don't have parking fees, so the majority of the enforcement ends at 10 am. Officers can write parking tickets, but most (as in 97% of them) will not. They're allegedly too busy enforcing the laws inside the station that CSOs cannot enforce (fare evasions, etc.) so it's cheaper to have CSOs in the lots and officers doing other things.
After the parking enforcement is done, CSOs are an extra set of eyes and ears, and act as a visual deterrent. We're extra bodies you can report crimes to. We ride trains and keep an eye on the lots while the officers are busy. We're not vital, but we do help.
--BART CSO
When my bicycle got stolen a
When my bicycle got stolen a little while back, i believe it was a CSO that took my report. I asked the agent to call the police, and she did. But the officer that showed up was wearing a light blue shirt. So, they do more than write parking tickets? Looks like some do...
Dude, are you an idiot? You
Dude, are you an idiot? You basicaly just told BART a reason they should not have your position, meaning there goes your job.
As for your excuses that not all CSO's write 30-40 tickets a day, I said AVERAGE, meaning some write more, some write less.
I know that the girl at Walnut Creek writes a lot. What is even better is I can watch from the platform and see stupid people park next to the car she is citing and walk into the station. Hello, did you not see her writing tickets? Do you think she is just going to magically not see your car? And I love it when people get mad at CSO's for there being no parking. Earth to people, CSO's are only out there enforcing the lot, they do not make the rules. I actually heard a CSO tell people before that they wish there were no Reserved parking and carpool programs, that it was first come first serve. One guy said this to a person and then said and then you still would not find parking because it would be full by 8:00. I cracked up!
Anyhow, what no one seemed to address in my original post is that it is going to get worse because they are selling off their lots. Remember, once it is gone, you cannot get it back!
CSO's are used for security
CSO's are used for security most of the time.. I just spoke to one about this.. and he told me he works at a busy station and only writes on averagoe 20 tickets.. And most CSO's write much less if any during their day.
Some other uses he told me....
-Babysitting tunnel/building entrances during heightend security
-Sit in a car/van with blacked out windows, looking for people doing whatever in a parking lot.
-Front desk person at some of the BART buildings
-Courrier for whatever the police need to get transported.
-visual deterrent at some stations, when they can't put an officer there.
-Escort service, for women (and some men) at night to their car.
I can't remember the other stuff he rattled off.. I am sure the CSO here can add to this. But he said they are increasing the CSO's and that Officers are understaffed.. (Hmm, looks like CSO's are saving BART money. They don't have to hire officers.)
OMG! I am so happy someone
OMG! I am so happy someone else has finally posted this (or I was able to see it). BART has this retarded notion that riders should not only pay ridiculous fares for pissy, funky smelling trains and rude station agents, but that we should also be finding alternative methods of getting to their poorly designed stations, such as car pooling, walking, riding a bike or getting on a bus.
Truth be told, BART has made these statements to the public many times. For some ludicrous reason, BART seems to want us to think that every city should have development similar to San Francisco or Oakland (i.e., dense housing such as more apartments and condos, maybe even townhomes) as this would put more people closer to BART, in that municipality, and ultimately create a greater need for more public transit (fed dollars). I can appreciate this approach, but it doesn't solve any issues that BART needs to fix now. They keep saying everything is the fault of politicians, but last time I checked, all BART board members were elected by constituents in their counties; sounds like a politician to me.
As far as your parking problem goes in Walnut Creek, the only thing you can do is call BART comments line at 510-464-7134. It is real person who can pass on your comment; do enough and someone will call back. You may not get the answer you want, but you will hear from someone who is responsible for the parking issue.
Hi Boopie, Thanks for your
Hi Boopie,
Thanks for your friendly welcome and reply.
I'm glad you're into the $.65/mile calc. and making people aware transit is cheaper.
Regarding the land that parking consumes, to clarify:
You are right: the amount of parking space around your home doesn't contribute to BART overcrowding, in fact, just the opposite. As the amount of land per residence increases, the further a region sprawls outward, and the less useful the transit (BART, or buses to it) is for people living far from it (because it isn't worth driving to and parking for short trips just to the next station.) Households within walking distance of transit have the highest rate of transit use, and therefore, the most plentiful transit service (buses and possibly trains.)
Regarding land use and sprawl: the amount of space that parking consumes contributes to the rate at which a city sprawls outward, but again, I agree with you that people wanting to have backyard space is part of outward sprawl: people *wanting* to sprawl outward. Having grown up with a backyard, I definitely understand the pleasures of having one. It's great to have some private outdoor space, and protected play area for kids.
At the same time, there are trade offs from the amount of land per residence: less transit in lower-density areas, more car and energy dependence (for transportation) and the environmental and geo-political consequences of these, less walkability and bike-ability for adults and kids, gridlock, loss of habitat and species as cities sprawl outward, loss of ag land, increased water use for large yards, increased housing costs to pay for more miles of roads, power, water, and sewer lines, etc.
I would rather see new development have smaller lots due to less parking at each (sorry :), while preserving more of the green space per residence, as a means to sprawl out at a slower rate. I look at some of those Kaufmann and Broad-type homes, with tiny (shrunk) houses, itty-bitty yards, but 6 parking spaces, filled with SUVs. The cars dwarf the living space. And I think, why are we shrinking our living spaces but keeping the same amount of space for cars? What are our priorities? Space for our cars, or space for us?
I'd rather have a yard (small, for low maintenance, but room for some plants and patio), less space devoted to parking, to have plentiful transit where I live; and walk- and bike-ability to nearby businesses and services. That's what I have now, except for just a patio (I'd like more of the common space (cared for by landscapers) at each unit to be dedicated to small gardens for residents.) We have perimeter parking, so where I live, in the interior of the complex, it's all green, lots of trees, not looking out onto roads/asphalt - I love that. I am close to neighbors, but there is a sense of privacy by the design of the residences, and the proximity to neighbors makes me feel safe. My place (in a 300? unit complex) is a 10 min. walk to 9? bus routes, yet feels very green. No whistling crack addicts, thankfully.
buses4peace
buses4peace - I am having
buses4peace - I am having trouble figuring out where you are in the North Bay that constitutes a transit hub but has such poor transit that going to SF is 10 hours round trip. The only places I call "transit hubs" up there are downtown San Rafael and downtown Santa Rosa. There are definitely better ways to the Peninsula from Santa Rosa than you have found. If you need to get to the Peninsula quick and it is not commute hours, take the Airporter to SFO and then switch to BART/Caltrain. More expensive than GG Transit but nonstop.